1985 LTD 2018 Fall Work Period

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Rednaxs60

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Started on the 1200 prepping the bike for the upcoming work. Sonya was also out with her mother so I had to entertain myself. Took the front off the bike.
Bike 1.jpg
Bike 2.jpg
Getting fairly good at stripping the bike down in good time.

Intend to replace the timing belt tensioners with the ones from the 1500, same ones and in good shape.

Have to make a timing belt pulley holder. Have some aluminum that I can bend to do the job.

Checked with my local parts store and the OEM head gaskets are some $80.00 each, and would have to get the other bits as well. Looking for a top end gasket set now. Not inexpensive to us here in the north.

Ordered the leak down test kit - $45.00 CDN off Amazon. Should be here Monday and will get cylinders tested next week. Thought it would be prudent to make sure what I could be in for. Don't expect any issue with the piston rings as the engine does not use oil. It is something that I did many years ago so it will be a good refresher.

Going to clean up the bike as a whole from the dirt riding we did in July. Looks worst than it is but needs a good clean.

Some wiring to take care of as well, never ends.

The 1500 is on the road so I won't be without a ride, and Sonya likes the ride of the 1500 as well - win-win all round.

More to follow. Cheers
 
Trying to understand the timing of this bike. Read up on it last night and have a better insight into the timing and how everything gets put back together.

The right timing belt pulley needs to have the pulley boss pointing forward and the left timing belt pulley has the boss facing rearward:
Right Pulley Boss.jpg
Left Pulley Boss.jpg
Small issue but quite important.

Will also ensure that the timing belt pulleys line up with the heat shield markings.

Removed the spark plugs and all are black with carbon, but #2 was also wet with gas. The only way for fuel to enter the cylinder is through the injector. Will investigate this as well. May switch the injectors on the one side to see if it is a faulty injector.

I also lined up the pulley marks with T1 on the flywheel:
Timing Marks.jpg
. Not the easiest place to get to.

Manual indicates that the T1 mark in the 1200 position and the timing belt pulleys with the "up" in the up direction is for #1. Rotate the crank 180 and timing mark T2 is in the timing window, the timing belt pulleys "up" indication is at the 0300 position and #4 cylinder should fire. Rotate the crank 180 and the T1 timing mark with the timing belt pulleys "up" marking in the 0600 position should be #2. Rotate the crank 180 and timing mark T2 is in the timing window, the timing belt pulleys "up" indication is at the 0900 position and #3 cylinder should fire. Have not confirmed this as yet, but will be removing the valve cover gaskets and going through this process again to confirm which cylinder is firing when depending on the position of the timing belt pulleys before I disassemble for work.

Not trying to overthink this but need to get a reference for what is happening - first time doing this work on a bike and a flat four to boot. Also reviewing various threads as well to get insight into what I will be looking at.
 
Did some more work on the bike Sunday, went riding yesterday - bad me. The '85 LTD has the Gr/Gl sensors on the back of the right cylinder head that needs to be removed and tied up out of the way:
Gr-Gl needs to be removed.jpg
Gr-Gl sensor plate oil seal.jpg
You will also notice there is an oil seal in the sensor case. As long as this is not damaged should be good for reuse. It is still available from Honda.

The sensor cam had to be removed first before the sensor case could come off. It is turned by a small nub on the cam shaft:
Gr-Gl Cam to be removed.jpg
Gr-Gl Cam showing cam shaft notch.jpg
Gr-Gl sensor cam position.jpg


Took the valve covers off and read the OEM service manual again. There are defoaming spaces and an oil distribution plate that is supposed to be removed. The oil distribution plate in the manual has to be removed to get at one of the cam holder bolts; however, on my '85 the oil distribution plate is designed so that I can get at the cam holder bolt without removing the oil distribution plate:
oil distribution plate with access hole.jpg


Since I will not be rebuilding the head in its entirety, I will not be taking the defoaming caps off.

Will probably be replacing the valve cover bolt(s) rubber grommets on install. These small grommets are part of the valve cover sealing arrangement. These grommets get hard and lose the elastic properties required to hold the valve covers firmly in place preventing leaks. I mention this because the valve cover bolts come up hard against the cylinder head. The force exerted by the valve cover bolts is transferred through these rubber grommets to the valve cover. If there is no elasticity left, leaking is a good possibility. Here is a pic:
Valve Cover bolt rubber gromets.jpg

The leak down test kit came in yesterday. Inexpensive piece of kit at $45.00 CDN, but should give me some good information.

More to follow. Going to be a good project.
 
Got the bike threads mixed up. Think I've got it straight now.

The leak down test kit came in Monday. Good looking unit for the price - $45.00 CDN to the front door - could not have bought the parts ad pieces to make my own for this price:
CLT Kit.jpg
Nice unit, like the case aspect, easy to store. Had to use a different cylinder fitting from my compression tester kit, the one from the CLT kit would not screw into the cylinder - will find out why later. Read up on how to use it on the net, lots of info out there. The gauges are not high end but do the job. The cylinder leakage gauge uses approximately 12 PSI to get to the set position. This was indicated as being an issue, and some have replaced this gauge with an air pressure gauge that reads up to 100 PSI -may do this in the future but for now I use the unit as is.

Hooked it up, adjusted the air pressure to suit and connected to the cylinder:
CLT Kit gauges.jpg
CLT Kit hooked up.jpg


As soon as I hooked the unit up to the cylinder it would zero out on me - or not. Went back to the net to find out what I was doing because there should have been a constant flow of air through the unit into the cylinder. Looked at the hose connecting to the engine cylinder and there is/was a bicycle typ air valve in the end of the hose before using the cylinder connection:
Bike schrader valve.jpg
The way it is installed there was no possibility of air flowing into the engine cylinder. Took this out and the unit worked fairly well.

The air pressure as I mentioned was set to approximately 12 PSI. The air flowed well and I have 4 exhaust valves that are leaking quite a lot. The air pressure dropped to about 7-8 PSI on each cylinder and air could be heard easily coming out of the exhaust valves. A leakage of 25 to 30 percent that I have read is a requirement to address the low compression issue. No air was heard escaping in other areas - I paid particular attention and listened for any air escaping through the crankcase.

My research on the net also indicated that exhaust valves are generally the key culprit in reduced compression when all else should be good. A lapping of the valves should make a significant difference.

Have a few tools to make such as pulley holders, then the heads come off. Gasket set to order as well.

More to follow. Cheers
 
More work done today. Have the bike stripped down, heads and valve assemblies on the work bench:
Bike stripped down LS.jpg
Bike stripped down RS.jpg
Head assemblies on work bench.jpg

Taking the heat shields off was uneventful except that there is a washer behind the heat shield and was not aware of it. Heard something hit the floor when I took the right heat shield off. Took the left heat shield of more slowly and found a washer was behind the heat shield for one of the securing bolts. Needless to say the washer on the right side hit the floor and is on walkabout. Will replace on install:
Right heat shield with washer.jpg

Used rope to secure the head(s) whileremoving from bike. Did not need the head(s) to hit the floor:
Rope used to support heads on removal.jpg

One bolt on the right side water connection to the head would not come out:
Water inlet.jpg
Tried removing on work bench but still resisting. Not leaking, leave alone.
Valve trains came off nice. Had the engine timed for #1 - intake and exhaust valves closed, but #3 still had some tension on the valves and the cam shaft rotated a bit. There was no valve tension on #2 or #4. Don't think this is an issue because the timing mark and the timing belt pulleys were in the proper orientation as per the OEM manual.

The heads and cylinders are in good condition. The exhaust valves and exhaust ports have quite a bit of carbon.

Here are some pictures of the heads and cylinders. There are two pictures that show the original cylinder cross hatch.
1 and 3 cylinders.jpg
2 and 4 cylinders.jpg
These pics show the original cross hatch:
3 cylinder showing original cross hatch.jpg
4 cylinder showing original cross hatch.jpg
 
Need one additional post for pics. These pics are of the cylinder heads:
Left head.jpg
right head.jpg


You may notice the carpet roll next to the bike. Have to share some space every now and then.

Cheers
 
Hi Ernest
just wondering how many kms have your pistons?
my 1200 had a head gasket crash on the right side with 74000kms 3 years ago. it has 83000 now. as the engine was open i took a look at everything. pistons, cylinders, valves, everything was in a clean and perfect shape, like new. so i'm really curios how many kms your engine has ;-)
greez
joebarteam
 
156,586 Kms. If it wasn't for the low compression I would not be taking the heads off. I would also submit that should a person have to remove the heads for whatever reason, a lapping of the valves would be a good thing as these engines are long in the tooth, and why do it twice. Just my thought on the issue.

Cylinders look pretty good for the age and Kms. Lots of carbon in the exhaust ports and historically with an engine that is in relatively good condition, the exhaust valves are generally the culprit for low compression. Had this happen when I owned a '68 Mustang. Low compression in '75, lapped the valves and drove it for another 10 years.

Will be ordering the parts and pieces I need for the install when I get back. There are some oil seals not mentioned in the kits available. These were not leaking so wondering if replacement is necessary.

Just doing a clean up of the garage this week as we are off to Italy for a couple of weeks.

Cheers
 
thnx for the kms info. have a nice trip to bella italia !
e un paese splendido per fare una volta en motocicleta e sono envidioso da te.
next year maybe france :)
greez
 
Won't be on a motorcycle, taking the train, but would like to do the countryside on one. Visiting Venice, Florence, Cinque Terre, Siena, Pizza, Pompei, Naples, Rome. Sonya is doing a type of pilgrimage, I'm doing an architecture appreciation tour. France is definitely on the list of places to go. Going to be a good trip. Cheers
 
Doing a search of the forums and the net about GL1200 head gaskets. Found a thread where AApple mentions that an aftermarket head gasket he received had a cylinder opening that was less than the OEM head gasket. On the same thread Dan mentions that he has used aftermarket head gasket(s) successfully.

I have looked at top end gasket sets and prices are all over the map, but a set can be had for approximately $125.00 CDN plus shipping, can be more or a little less. OEM head gaskets are some $80.00 CDN each.

had an estimate done by the local Honda dealer for the parts needed for a top end gasket set and they priced out at close to $500.00 CDN. This set on ebay.ca, https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Honda-GL-1200-G ... SwM9RbGAMY, is $125.00 CDN plus shipping. A Vesrah gasket set is $218.00 CDN plus shipping. Living north of the border is challenging.

Also looking at the Lisle 23300 Small Engine Valve Spring Compressor. For a cost of $35.00 and free shipping to the door, time and energy duplicating this small tool doesn't seem worthwhile.

Trip to Italy first than apply the gray matter to this issue. Cheers
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=206001#p206001:j4hce71w said:
Rednaxs60 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:03 pm[/url]":j4hce71w]
Found a thread where AApple mentions that an aftermarket head gasket he received had a cylinder opening that was less than the OEM head gasket.

The gasket set I bought, and paid for, was advertised as being for an GL1100....the head gaskets in that kit were actually for a GL1000, thus the smaller bore size. I wound up having to buy a correct set of head gaskets for mine. I still have the 1000 gaskets, since I can't use them. :yes:
 
Have been reading the OEM service manual and it indicates that the heads and block be flat, spec is a max of 0.004" with a flat edge, and because the head gasket is supposed to be graphite coated no additional sealant is required. I'm thinking that as long as the head gasket meets this spec all should be well. Have time to contemplate.

Noticed that there are oil seals on the camshafts and these are not included in the gasket sets. These were not leaking so should be good for a second time round. Will have my parts guy get me a price for these.

The $125.00 ($22.00 CDN for shipping - and if the customs people have a bad day, duty) gasket set is looking better all the time.

Trying to keep a handle on the extras needed to do this job. Want to have everything on hand for install, nothing worse than starting the install and needing something.

Cheers
 
Little more work done this afternoon. Cleaned up the heads using a retractable razor scraper:
scraper.jpg
, Goo Be Gone and steel wool (SOS pad). Cleaned up pretty good. Right side head:
head 2.jpg
Left side head:
Head 1.jpg


Checked the head for flatness IAW the OEM service manual. The spec has an allowable limit of 0.004 inch. Used a 1/2 inch aluminum square tube:
straight edge.jpg
and a 0.003 inch feeler gauge - don't have a 0.004. Could not slide the feeler gauge under the aluminum bar so all is well. Just have to clean up the cylinder block.

Cheers
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=206039#p206039:1z55bir1 said:
dan filipi » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:28 pm[/url]":1z55bir1]
Tubes tend to have a slight bow. Check your straight edge for straightness by rolling it around each edge.
:good:
 
Back from globe trotting. Nice time in Italy, learned a lot from the trip. Favourite place was Riomaggiorie in Chinque Terre. The Roman aspect of Assisi, the Trevi Fountain, Pompei, and the catacombs in Naples. Lots of other highlights but these were at the top of the list. Did visit the Vatican and took a tour. The tour guide, an older lady, balanced the tour between historic and religious development. Good to be home though.

Back to the grind, had a cold so down for three days. Got back to the heads yesterday and started to clean the heads as well - time consuming work to say the least.

Took some pictures of the valve seats. The intake valve seats are relatively good, a light lapping will bring these back to 100%. The exhaust seats are another question. Should clean up fairly well with some medium and lite lapping compound.

Here are some pics:
Valve seat 4.jpg
Valve seat 1.jpg
Valve seat 3.jpg
Valve seat 2.jpg
 
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