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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#136  Unread postPosted: May 15th, 2018, 3:20 am

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Xavier - these new style RR with only a negative and positive connection to the electrical system is confounding me, but I'm always open to learning something new.

Two things. My friends Triumph Rocket has the series RR with the new technology and the electrical system setup is that power comes out of the RR and splits - goes to the battery through a 30 amp fuse and 12 gauge wire and goes to the fuse block through another set of in line fuses. There is no connection to the electrical system in the wiring harness like we have on the GW. His RR connection was the same as the SH847 so we tried it in his bike and it was plug and play, system voltage was solid at 14.0 VDC.

Another fellow I correspond with just installed the SH847 series RR I sent him on his '85 LTD. He also has the Compufire 55403 series RR on his other bike since 2012 and it is working well. He tried both the SH847 and the Compufire on the '85 LTD by connecting these in the wiring harness as per the older OEM RR but this did not work. The RR would not output the required voltage. He connected theses units to the battery and the battery terminal of the starter solenoid and both worked. He has since installed the SH847 permanently connected to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid and it is working well maintaining 14.0 VDC +/- 1 volt at all RPMs.

Don't understand exactly why it will not work when connected into the electrical system as per the original design.

With these in mind, would recommend connecting your RR to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid and let us know how it works. You will have to cap off the red/white wires as these will be live at all times because of how theses are connected into the system.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#137  Unread postPosted: May 15th, 2018, 5:52 am

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Thinking about your install again. There is no reason the RR should not work connected into the system as per the OEM RR install. Since it is not working as you would expect, I'm curious as to whether the dual red/white wires that you have connected to are causing an issue with the RR sensing a good voltage signal. You may want to try disconnecting one of these wires and see what the RR does regarding voltage. Won't hurt to try before you change the connection closer to the battery.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#138  Unread postPosted: May 15th, 2018, 11:46 am

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hi Ernest,
i will try disconnecting one red/white wire at the time and see what the multimeter tells. this is a new try for me. i will inform you.
connecting the RR directly to the starter solenoid and to earth was the second try i've done and this didn't work. first i had it directly to the battery as recomended by the vendor.
when i get the RR you are sending me, i will see if this changes anything what i really hope.
what do you think about trying to connect the sense wire to the red/white wires? could this go and sense as it should or make a new issue?
greez
joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#139  Unread postPosted: May 18th, 2018, 12:20 am

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hi Oldwing fans
this was an interesting try taking a red/white wire at the connector off. it doesn't matter the red/white wire i disconnected, it doesn't charge anymore. i also tried connecting the black wire to one of the red/white wires to see if it senses this way. no way! no charge at all and the ignition stays live. this means no need to turn the key on to start the bike. don't do it :-)
while testing, the red/white wires at the connector and the 3 yellow wires at the connector on the left side of the battery were really hot.
a new thought: with half the wires, charging gets lost. charging needs good wires. could it be that the oem wires are not enough in combination with this RR and consumers on?
greez
joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#140  Unread postPosted: May 31st, 2018, 8:58 am

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Hi Ernest
You saved me! Really, you saved me. I got your parcel with the RR and connected it to test it. all consumers on at idle 12.9v, at 1100 rpm 13.3, from 1200rpm on and above 14.4v on the voltmeter. Without consumers 0.1 to 0.2v more. finally a RR that works. It was a long way to the success. Tomorrow, I will connect the wires as the should be and ride the oldwing to see if also riding is ok.
Thanks again.
Greez
Joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#141  Unread postPosted: May 31st, 2018, 12:59 pm

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You're welcome. Enjoy. Cheers

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#142  Unread postPosted: May 31st, 2018, 4:10 pm

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Great job! :good:

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#143  Unread postPosted: June 2nd, 2018, 3:32 am

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Hi Oldwing-fans

did the test ride today.

with all consumers (without any 0.1-0.2v more)
idle 12.9v
1000rpm 13.3v
above 1200 rpm 14.4v
once and just for 2 seconds at 3000rpm 15.5v.

i think i won this battle :-) thank you for helping.

greez
Joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#144  Unread postPosted: June 2nd, 2018, 6:01 pm

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WooHoo!! :Egyptian:

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#145  Unread postPosted: September 14th, 2018, 4:54 am

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Hi Oldwing-Fans
After 2000 kms with the canadian RR the charging behavior stays as described last june. Any changes seen 'till today. Just thinking about making the charging fix or modification with a relay to be sure it doesn't show any volts over 15 like it sometimes does. i'm afraid no to do it and getting issues in the future with hot wires or alternator burning.
If i think right i should connect the black/light green wire (sense wire) to the relay #87 and from relay #85 back to the black/light green wire that goes to the ignition. Then a 12 ga wire from the relay #85 to - bat and #30 to + bat with a 30a fuse in between.
I've seen this kind of fix in several forums and it seems to work right so i expect in my case.
Just in case i am wrong or i forget something important, please tell me about. :-)
Thanks.
greez
joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#146  Unread postPosted: September 14th, 2018, 5:24 am

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#147  Unread postPosted: September 14th, 2018, 7:40 am

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Xavier - Good to hear that the Canadian connection is still working for you. Have read what you propose and have a slightly different take on what you want to do and here it is.

Your connections are not correct. You would connect the sense wire from the electrical system to pin #30 and pin #87 to the RR. The +12 VDC to pin #86 and pin #85 to ground.

Here is a mod done by one of the forum members and it does change the system so that the sense wire sees what the RR output is instead of what the electrical system is doing – much like the one wire alternator setup. It provides the RR with a truer electrical system voltage requirement than the stock OEM setup. You do not have to make any modification at the starter solenoid for this mod to work well:
Attachment:
RR Sense Wire with Relay.jpeg
You will notice that the wire going to the starter solenoid from the RR does not connect to any other wire. For the 1200, there is a join/bond between the red/white wire and the red wire from the starter solenoid as shown in this schematic:
Attachment:
gl1200 charger.JPG


What you are proposing does not change the charging system a whole lot.

Here's my take on what you want to do. You want the RR to see the true system voltage/amperage so that you have a more consistent voltage in the 14.2 VDC range. The electrical sense wire that is connected to the RR at present comes from the ignition switch via a few other electrical items that use power from this sense wire. The sense wire connection at the RR is at the end of the line and there could be a significant voltage drop across this wire.

The control circuit of the RR has a reference voltage of approximately 14.2 VDC. The control circuit of the RR is in parallel with the RR output and when it samples the RR output and the voltage is higher than the 14.2 VDC it shunts voltage to ground. When the voltage is lower than 14.2 VDC it reduces the shunting of voltage to ground.
Attachment:
Shunt-regulator.jpg


Since the voltage in the system represented on the OEM sense wire will never be at or above 14.2 VDC, the RR output will always be in excess of 14.2 VDC. I submit that there is probably at least a 1 VDC drop across this sense wire. Using this as a basis, the RR sees an electrical system voltage of 13.2 VDC on a continuous basis and the RR output so the RR output will be 14.2 VDC plus 1 VDC for an output of 15.2 VDC – pure math.

The mod above changes the sense wire voltage to what is being output from the RR. You want the RR to maintain a steady 14.2 VDC output. With this mod, if the RR voltage rises above 14.2 VDC, the RR sense wire transmits this to the RR comparator circuit and the RR output is reduced, conversely when the RR voltage drops below 14.2 VDC the RR output will be increased.

The mod above is similar to what the vintage auto industry does when a vintage car is rewired.
Attachment:
Wiring schematic - 1.jpg


Having mentioned the above I would recommend a look at this mod and go from there.

The next best thing would be to install a series RR - I mention series and not MOSFET because a MOSFET is an electronic component used in the circuitry of the RR. It is where the control element is located in the RR that is the issue and makes the RR a series or shunt RR. I have already shown a shunt RR comparator circuit above where the control element is in parallel with the RR output. The series RR control element is in line with the RR output:
Attachment:
Voltage-regulator.jpg
The above mentioned mod is in essence a poor man's series RR mod, but a good one.

One last caveat, the drawings and schematics are not my doing, used from the net and forum thread(s), and I do appreciate the effort that was put into making them so that I am able to understand the issue(s) that I use them for.

Just MHO and thinking out loud.

Cheers
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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#148  Unread postPosted: September 14th, 2018, 1:04 pm

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Hi Ernest,

Thank you very much for your explanations.

I first thought to do it the way the picture shows.

Attachment:
relay.jpg


The wire coming out of the RR is the sense wire (black/light green).
With this wiring I would only see how is the voltage at the battery and that could be less than the RR voltage as you write.
You are right and I will wire it the way you propose and tell you how it does work.

I hope this will reduce the system voltage to the point nothing will get to hot,
at least down to 14.2 volts and I also hope not to have to change again the RR,
this time to a series RR, then the one it is inside is #4 and works fine untill now.

Greez
Xavier
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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#149  Unread postPosted: September 14th, 2018, 1:40 pm

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I know the 1977 if you disconnect the stock VR out of the system the voltage will skyrocket. I removed the plug soldered and done the connections just like we do on so many different connections with heat shrink etc. and have had only minor fluctuations on voltage. But mine is a 1977 though with a stock shunt type VR.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#150  Unread postPosted: September 15th, 2018, 2:03 am

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Years ago, Honda did exactly what you are planning to do. The battery is a representation of the electrical system as a whole in that it will show an electrical system voltage; however, it is not just voltage that is of interest.

The issue with the electrical system is the electrical system amperage. It is amperage that determines the system voltage and how the RR needs to react.

The battery does three things when installed. The battery is for starting the engine, providing supplemental power when the engine alternator system is not producing enough power to operate the electrical system, and to absorb spikes, etc during motorcycle operation.

For #1 - engine starting, once the engine is started and the battery is replenished to 100% state of charge, the battery is a minor load to the electrical system and accepts a trickle charge from the electrical system of say 2 amps. You will notice that most motorcycle AGM batteries have the charging ratings on them, and this is for a reason, battery health. The Battery Tenders are designed to facilitate this as well. This is also why I am not a fan of using the battery as a distribution centre.

The second aspect f providing supplemental power is expected to be for a short duration, after which the battery is replenished and it becomes a minor load to the electrical system accepting a trickle charge.

The third aspect happens on a regular basis in some form or another, but we never notice it.

Getting back to amperage and voltage. Voltage is the electrical pressure in the electrical system and the RR is designed to meet this requirement based on the flow of electrical current - amperage - in the electrical system. As I have explained above, the battery is seeing amperage of approximately 2 amps so the voltage fluctuation at the battery so there is not a lot of change at the battery.

Using this schematic:
Attachment:
gl1200 charger.JPG
the point where the wires are bonded together is the key element in the system. For engine and motorcycle starting there is a huge outflow of power from the battery to the electrical system because the battery is the source of power for starting. Once the engine is started and the motorcycle is operating, and with power being produced by the engine alternator system in excess of 12.6 VDC, the current flow from where the wires are bonded together is to the battery at an ever decreasing rate as the battery returns to a 100% state of charge. The remainder of the power requirement for the electrical system flows to the motorcycle electrical system through the ignition switch.

If you were to determine the electrical power requirements based on amps, you would notice that at the point where the wires are bonded together, there is approximately 2 amps flowing to the battery, and the remainder flows to the ignition switch. If your bike requires say 15 amps to operate, there would be 13 amps flowing to the ignition switch.

Using this analogy, if there was an electrical load increase of say 2 amps (GPS and cell phone are attached to the system), there would still only be 2 amps flowing to the battery, but 15 amps needed to flow through the ignition switch. If you connect heated clothing this increase could be 8 amps, in this regard there would still only be 2 amps flowing to the battery, and 21 amps flowing through the ignition switch.

The electrical system voltage change if there is one will be felt at the battery, but the battery is controlling the current - amperage - flowing to it, not the electrical system so the electrical system voltage represented at the battery should remain fairly stable, not a lot of electrical current - amperage - change. You can see that there is a lot of change on the other side of the equation through the ignition switch depending how the additional accessories are cionnected into the system.

So having mentioned the above and IMHO I would still recommend a mod such as this:
Attachment:
RR Sense Wire with Relay.jpeg


When thinking of changes and such to the electrical system, we have to think in amperage not voltage. Never heard of a person wanting an alternator that had an output greater than 14.2 VDC, but we are always looking at the amperage output.

Just a few more thoughts, and as always, just my opinion.

Cheers
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