Epiphany?

[canuckxxxx]

Fuel injector atomizes the fuel...which is what I said.

 

[slabghost]

canuckxxxx » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:21 am[/url]":1swwgn19]
Fuel injector atomizes the fuel...which is what I said.

Has anyone disputed this? :head bang:

 

[joedrum]

yes i uderstand that FI squirts right in air flow ....but atomizing dosnt happen instantly in my opinion ...actually the closer it is to heads the worse it is ...as the heads are hot and changes spay instantly ...when atomized fully the heads have less effect on charge presented ...is the difference ...so i know most are all over the FI system ...show me the numbers that backs it up ...to my knowledge there isnt any ....nascar went FI and the cars lost a 100 hp from the previous carb cars .....so its not like i dont know FI ...i just disagree with the car industry and all the tech that supports FI..plain and simple ....

im sure FI is best in the world of people without a clue but can drive a car or ride a bike ...im a perfectionish results getter and FI falls short in my world of performance ...im 61 yrs old ...there a drag strip right down the road .....my frame work inside me is totally compromised from a man made virus ....doing a dragstrip deal is not really to smart for me ....plus it think my bike could use some better work on its frame also ..so the both of us will stay off the dragstrip...i could care less if ones dont want to listen to what i say ...but im sure some do ...and i could care less about the others really i just present what i do ...what others think is on them and not my concern at all its there right to...that how i look at that .....i plan on riding hooch a long time pushing hooch is not that smart as the power is huge and could beak things ....riding hooch is the top pleasure i have ...not convincing others ....past videos and posting witch i do freely so others know what up ..most would hide secrets and stuff ...im here to present hooch as it is .....so being convincing past my freely given info is not on the table ..people should be glad i hold nothing back ....and that makes me feel good enough ...not trying to win top dog spot ..it is just what it is :thanks:

 

[joedrum]

slabghost » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:13 am[/url]":yst7lg26]
Let's clarify the terminology.
atomized is a mist of tiny droplets. Like the mist from a rattle can of paint.
Vapor is the fumes from the solvents of the paint evaporating.
These are terms for the states of materials and are not interchangeable.
Ice is water in a solid state. We simply call it water in liquid form. When forced through a small opening it becomes a spray. A smaller opening is a mist. At this level we can say it is atomized. A fine spray of it on your hand will barely make it feel damp. The same amount applied to a hot surface will likely form a cloud large enough to obscure vision temporarily as steam.
These are terms used to describe specific states or forms of materials. No one asks for a drink of ice or steam. But both can be water.

Discussions here rely on accurate descriptions. We cannot hear smell or feel what is present at each others place. We rely on descriptions of issues to form possible solutions. :thanks:

that good V ..ok when spray painting ...no one suggest putting spayer right next to surface ...why it takes distance to get proper atomizing to get smooth coat ...same thing with motor :thanks:

 

[slabghost]

Brian is right. Fuel is atomized the instant it is injected. Keep in mind the valve is just opening and the piston is dropping creating a vacuum of sorts drawing in both the fuel and air. This maintains atomization longer and minimizes vaporizing before valve closes. The mixture is then compressed and ignited.

 

[joedrum]

totally disagree takes distance to do properly ...as said painter dont spray right at surface level there a sweet spot of being just the right distance

 

[slabghost]

You are correct but the injector doesn't spray against anything.

 

[joedrum]

what everyone is not getting here is the volume of air to the amount of gas volume ...air volume is huge a spayed gas is small ...it takes both to make good charge ...and air volume requires distance before motor ...plain and simple to me ..in my opinion :thanks:

 

[slabghost]

How the mix is achieved makes no real difference once the charge is ignited. Ideal charge has X% fuel and Z% air. Air is delivered through a manifold just like on a cabureted motor. As long as the percentages are right it makes no difference if fuel is added before after or at the same time as the air. It still gets combined and compressed and ignited. Throttle body injection forms the mix before the runners. Port injection much closer to the intake valves.

 

[joedrum]

it is your right there i just disagree with there conclusions on that as what important ...and a black handy man with smart hands invented heart surgery not a doctor ...it has saved many lives .....

 

[dan filipi]

Originally this topic was about the reason heat is added to the intake manifold, so it expands with the engine.
This seems to line up with why the cm manifold broke the welds (which did not have heat far as we know) but what other information is out there to back up this claim?

 

[slabghost]

Apparently the heat was in fact added to allow pooled fuel to vaporize and for cold starts and running.
https://www.google.com/patents/US1822147
https://www.google.com/patents/US2807245
The coolant itself was added to motors to even their expansion and reduce warpage.

This does not however alter the fact that a hot motor will expand further than a cold manifold. Or the fact that a cool atomized fuel charge will impart the greatest power.

 

[slabghost]

Here's a discussion on how to add heat to the corvair intake.
https://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 865,690573

 

[slabghost]

for every 5 F rise in intake temperature, air density drops 1%. The hotter the air, the less fuel the computer injects to compensate for reduced oxygen. Around town, testing has shown an average drop of around 20 degrees F which is good for a 3 percent power increase.

Copied from- https://trackdogracing.com/Hondata.aspx

 

[Ansimp]

canuckxxxx » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:00 am[/url]":3lqxbfde]
Joe, FI does a great job of atomizing the fuel by spraying the gas, under high pressure, through a fine nozzle, right into the air stream. Much better than a carb that is drawing gas in at atmospheric pressure.

The whole auto industry is FI and nobody wants to go back to carbs.IMO

As far as doubters go; the best way to shut them up is to post some performance numbers such as a time slip from a 1/4 mile run. There must be some drag strips in Florida. An ET in the 11s with a top speed over 100mph would shut them right up.

As far as gas mileage I would suggest doing a closed loop of about 130 miles to eliminate any influence from wind or hills. Anything over 50 mpg would be amazing.

Brian

+1 :good:
When you have faulty fuel pumps dropping pressure fuel economy and power decrease. Once pressure is back up to normal correct atomisation of fuel occurs

 

[joedrum]

well tony i know all about FI systems ....they have many parts ...as said ...everyone seems to think gas sprayed into droplets is atomizing instantly ...maybe it is according to webster book of words ...but that dosnt make up a good gas charge ....as explain earlier a gas charge that internal combustion engines need to be the most efficientand that involves air ....lots of it as compared to sprayed gas ...plain and simple sheesh .....so in system that allows a better mix ...its just common sense it will be atomized better...fuel injection involves lots of parts sensors solenoids high pressure pumps ..return lines computer super filters mapping and a fair amount of tinkering cause parts dont do as suppose to

yes carbs are tough too since epa got involved ...i wont get into epa and there total legalize crimes they do to peoples rights except to say they distoried the carb plaiin and simple .....but once the epa cancer to carbs is removed and real carb made from whats left over .....i have a induction system that rivals any FI mpg reading ....and best of all it has one moving part the throttle plates hook directly to the throttle cable ....ill take that over FI any day ....

and i dont seem to have any performance downgrade in my bike ..i have never rode a more powerful oldwing ...ill stand here thank you :BigGrin:

 

[ekvh]

Take your bike from there to Denver and you'd need to tweak it some, carb and ignition. Which Joe would do in a blink, but for average rider/drivers the ability of a computer to tweak mixture and timing on the fly made it a better ticket for the masses. In carburetion days, there were folks who naively lost motors taking family vacations through elevation changes. They were in the process of computer controlled carbs too, but efi was just easier. Each has its merits.

Yes, I forgot Slab's question.

 

[joedrum]

i agree eric with what you said totally ... :good: when true gas charge making is eliminated like in FI you cant have icing .....FI dosnt get rid of moisture in the air at all it just fluctuates gas ....so theres some compromise there ....

in farm tractors that are gas and carbed ...sometimes the carb is several feet from motor ...ive operated some when temps were way below zero ...i think in these condition icing is no problem as every molecule of moisture is frozen and there none left to make ice anymore :smilie_happy:

 

[slabghost]

It seems the reasons for heat are many and varied. Poor carburetor efficiency I expect was and remains the first. Expansion issues that started this thread seem to be minimal after further research with some notable exceptions. Intake designs are more dependent on how much space is available than efficiency. It is noteworthy to observe that most of the varied designs and capacity intakes perform much the same with heat. Maybe a percentage of the fuel charge as vapor evens performance in some way?