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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#61  Unread postPosted: December 15th, 2014, 9:11 pm

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OK I will post my one and only thought on this topic. Back in the model, so manual A ford days you had a manual spark advance lever you had to play with as you drove. It seams to have taken a long time to automate the process. I am 75 and have no time for reinventing things, I only have time for riding. When I was younger I played with electronics and software until I retired. then I went into plumbing and, handyman stuff. Now I hunt fish and RV and visit Great Grand kids. Just had a brain scan, and they said I still have one still in good shape so I use my gray matter to just maintain the equipment I have. You guy's I'll be rooting for you, go. Off to more interesting things
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Automated timing control has been around for a very long time indeed. This thread is to show how an inexpensive part (VOES switch) can be used to change timing based on riding conditions and not just engine speed.

As you mentioned, Harley and other cycle/car manufactures have used timing advance-retard levers for decades. Many were because the engine had a magneto which does not change timing internally. Hopefully when (if) I am 75 there is still a motorcycle in my garage, and preferably one that uses gasoline. Thanks for stopping by and I hope you visit us again!

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#62  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 4:34 am

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Now the red lines makes sense. It doesn't take long for these coils to develop their "pop." This keeps them from overheating or too big a charge? Do they multiple spark at higher rpm you?

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#63  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 4:53 am

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paul this great stuff....... this has got my total attention

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#64  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 5:40 am

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#65  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 8:05 am

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Now the red lines makes sense. It doesn't take long for these coils to develop their "pop." This keeps them from overheating or too big a charge? Do they multiple spark at higher rpm you?


If you look at where the saturation really occurs (not using my example picture) it is amazing that this ignition even works at all.

There are several advantages to our coil saturation control:

1) keeps them cool at low rpm where most coils over heat from being "ON" far too long
2) reduces electrical stress on smaller bikes (Honda CB350-550) with low wattage charging systems
3) shows the incredible ability of our coils to saturate and multi spark at all rpm....yes even high rpms.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#66  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 9:04 am

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yep when i was no where near getting the single to work good and plugs looked like stove pipe ...it never missed a lick :headscratch: :ahem:

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#67  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 8:33 pm

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For those of you not tired of my grade school drawings, lets ramp it up a bit.

The next picture is a more accurate portrayal of a "real timing curve".
We previously agreed that timing only needs to be pulled back or "retarded" in the operating rpm range while driving.

Here you can see how we ignite the fuel closer and closer to TDC (piston reaches the top of its stroke) as the LOAD of the engine increases. Again, this is because the harder the piston works against a LOAD the faster your fuel burns.

So at cruising rpm we can create steps. Each step provides correct "timing" for a given LOAD.
Using our accurate RPM based mapping, and introducing a toggle switch, rotary switch (Brian), or VOES (Dan) you can match the spark event to the LOAD your bike is working against.

!!!! Remember, there is a device on every motorcycle (except a speedway bike) that can accomplish the same thing. It's called a transmission. Normally when your motorcycle climbs a steep hill or hauls a sidecar/trailer you just drop a gear or two and match the engine LOAD to your timing.

In this case, we begin to see there is another way! We change our timing to match our engine LOAD.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#68  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 10:04 pm

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Fortunately this forum has some good examples of extreme load differences.
Start with minimal load situations where you have lots of motor, torque, light weight and gear ratio so low you cant shift fast enough.
Of course Joe and Hooch, probably the only Wing that can hit the rev limiter in high gear. I saw video of him idling up his drive that people could hardly stand up on and spinning the rear wheel with each piston hit.
When I saw that I knew his advanced timing would do no harm to the engine as he would never see a loaded condition. With this extremely high foot-torque to load I could see no reason to use a VOES.

brianinpa comes to mind with his easy riding style and reports about the need for less shifting in the Virgina hills and how when under a high gear load he could retard the timing vs down shifting by switching between reduced timing curves. He felt a seat of the pants increase in performance and showed how reducing the timing under load enhanced the engines torque enough the need to downshift was not required. I don't believe his bike is a candidate for the addition of a VOES. Probably in his normal daily riding he never sees the loads of the Virginia hills and the trips he does take the use of his switch or an occasional downshift would not be sufficient enough of a return for the effort. I do believe his addition of the switch will also show returns when he gets into a situation having to use a lower grade fuel and can retard the timing to match the octane.
NOTE: Never set the VOES so it is ungrounded or running retarded timing when you are cruising as you would defeat the purpose. If the vacuum hose breaks or is open and you have no vacuum to the switch you will run sluggish, get slow acceleration and poor mileage.

So when is a VOES necessary?
Brian is close, if you ride hills as a routine or change loads such as passengers, trailers or sidecars a VOES is a must.

Now, how do I wire it.
Image

The Curves (maps) or offset from each other so the VOES controls to loaded timing and the Toggle Switch could be used to control situations of lower grade fuel.

OK I know you have some racers and you want it all, great ride, power, economy but have the need for speed occasionally. Remember went you grab throttle you lose vacuum, switch opens, timing is retarded you get as mentioned above get slow acceleration as your first 2 or 3 gears you have a minimal load and can use a great deal of timing. Add a switch to bypass the VOES to ground until you reach higher gears or the point of the engine being loaded due to gear and wind shear and then open the switch. Since you still have no vacuum if your throttle is open the timing will retard into the load.

Each of the 4 timing curves are independently different from each other, degrees timing and rev limit can be different. Any number of controls can be used to change the timing to fit load and conditions. Temperature switches for limiting RPM until engine temperature reached, NOS solenoid control with relays, timing boost control and many more.

A well tuned engine is a joy to drive, economical, environmentally friendly.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#69  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2014, 11:32 pm

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Okay a question somewhat related. We know the fuel burns faster under a load. And the duration of the burn must be reduced as rpm increases. Well it will be because the actual cycle of the piston is reduced. So the question here is as rpm increases how much closer should the sparks be to fit into the cycle? Say 3 sparks 5 degrees apart is sufficient from 1000rpm to 2000 rpm. Just pulling numbers out of my hat here. Should the sparks be 1 or 2 degrees closer every 100-200 rpm increase from there? Or since the degrees are reached ever more rapidly the sparks should remain tied to that rotation?

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#70  Unread postPosted: December 17th, 2014, 4:45 am

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what a great post gary to have manual and auto switching in the same system ..seems to cover all bases

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#71  Unread postPosted: December 17th, 2014, 10:55 am

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(1.) We know the fuel burns faster under a load. (2.) And the duration of the burn must be reduced as rpm increases. Well it will be because the actual cycle of the piston is reduced. So the question here is as rpm increases how much closer should the sparks be to fit into the cycle? (3.) Say 3 sparks 5 degrees apart is sufficient from 1000rpm to 2000 rpm. Just pulling numbers out of my hat here. Should the sparks be 1 or 2 degrees closer every 100-200 rpm increase from there? Or since the degrees are reached ever more rapidly the sparks should remain tied to that rotation?


Great questions
1. Seldom do people realize load increases the burn rate of the fuel (increases efficiency) and is very similar raised compression, that is why timing is reduced.

2. "Duration of burn" varies less with RPM if load and fuel don't change so greater advance can be used. i. e. Hooch. As intake velocities increase, atomize of incoming fuel better and load increases efficiency see 1. above. With multi-spark Duration of Burn is attenuated and not reduced as a percentage of the cycle. The moment of the first spark the flame front generated is be extinguished by quench and standoff factors. So if you don't burn as much of the available fuel by approximately 40° after TDC it is wasted, piston speed has exceeded the expansion rate of the fuel burn. Doesn't mean it isn't still expanded but has no effective push on the piston. With controlled multi-spark you have a second and third chance to ignite the fuel in a lean or rich condition, quenched by the cylinder walls circulated over the spark plug by inherent turbulence of head design. Usually designed squish increase velocities and move unburnt gases to a restricted area surrounding the spark plug what a wonderful time to generate a spark in a gaseous hot, volatile state.

3. The first spark should be as you would place it for any timing map and I believe that the 2nd should be near 1/2 way between the first and TDC and 3rd sparks should be nearer to TDC about 5° BTDC. All 3 sparks should be effective at lower RPM, at mid range 1st and 2nd may be more effective and at higher RPM 1 and 3 may be more effective with the higher velocities.

Many other things can be affect the burn in the cylinder and I believe that of most importance would be spark plug. A reduced gap increases the duration of the spark generated giving more of a chance for fuel ignition being less effected by compression and chamber velocities. Spark plug design a grounding strap with a points that comes roughly centered over the center electrode. Since the spark is generated between the center electrode and the ground strap the bigger the ground strap the more the propagation of the flame front is blocked.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#72  Unread postPosted: December 17th, 2014, 11:27 am

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Okay now that brings another question on the spark plugs. Plugs designed with pointed ground strap are more effective? Will smaller gap cause faster burning of electrodes?

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#73  Unread postPosted: December 17th, 2014, 12:03 pm

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Okay now that brings another question on the spark plugs. Plugs designed with pointed ground strap are more effective? Will smaller gap cause faster burning of electrodes?

How many spark plugs have you changed that were truly worn out on a motorcycle? They most normally fouled out or damaged from heat from incorrect timing under load or heat range selection. With correcting timing and multi-spark the plugs will remain clean and last a very long time. Many of the spark plugs today are exotic metals i. e. platinum or iridium and these greatly extend the wear factor or movement of metal across the arc gap. This also effects the color of the spark as the blue/green color mentioned by people it the copper carried with the arc as it moves across the spark gap. The exotics move much less material, can operate at much higher temperatures and create a near colorless spark that is hard to see and are a great choice.

I prefer a copper based plug (your favorite), and file the ground strap to a point ( > ) roughly over the center of the ground strap. Your just relieving the corners to get them out of the way to help propagation of the flame front in the chamber.

I would be interested in hearing how the plugs look on anyone running the C5 ignition in comparison to how they used to look.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#74  Unread postPosted: December 17th, 2014, 5:36 pm

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This is turning into a real good discussion with input from the designer which is awesome!

I don't want to take away from the great information being posted but I wanted to pick up from where I left off after my test ride.

So I got the air switch and the way it's designed should allow me to use it to switch curve using the vacuum advance port on my single carb, and hopefully the same port as the stock rack which feeds the vacuum advance on the stock ignition.

The link posted earlier by Paul states the vacuum source for this switch should be manifold vacuum not ported vacuum like we have for the stock vacuum advance but I believe the ported vacuum will work and here's why:

When I was riding along straight and level the vacuum reading was at 15".
This switch being activated by high vacuum (above 5") it will activate curve 1.
As I approached the incline and gave it more throttle, at first vacuum would increase but the clincher is once I'd given it enough throttle to the point that it needed to change to another curve, vacuum dropped to about 7-5".
This is working out to be the ideal scenario.
What I don't know at this time is if the stock 1100 vacuum advance port will do the same thing.
Zman has offered to help me test on his bike with a vacuum gauge.
What I'm hoping to see is a similar drop in vacuum under load as I see with my single carb.
If this is the case then anyone running a single carb or stock 4 carb rack would use the same vacuum source.

The plan is for zman and I to meet up for a ride New Years day. I'll know more then.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#75  Unread postPosted: December 17th, 2014, 5:52 pm

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Manifold vacuum is useless with a stock rack of carbs. So we shall see how this works out with vac advance port. My reasoning that manifold is useless on stock rack is the only real source is the plenum area under the filter. The intake horns as a source are far to erratic.

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Politicians are like diapers. They need changed often. For the same reason.
A fine is tax you pay for doing wrong. A tax is fine you pay for doing well.
Second place makes you first loser.


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