C5 using a VOES switch

[canuckxxxx]

dan filipi » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:58 am[/url]":3d5wzki4]

canuckxxxx » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:52 am[/url]":3d5wzki4]
Seems odd to me that, in this day and age, you have to manually switch to different ignition curves for load changes like going up hills. Is C5 working on encorporating vacuum or any other inputs into their system to make it seamless and automatic?

Thanks
Brian

That is what this thread is about.

Of course I can see what you are doing and why you are doing it and it seems like the next logical refinement to the C5 system. But I want to know if C5 is planning to add this to their kits. In post #11 it sounded like they are suggesting people buy a VOS like you did.

Brian

 

[wilcoy02]

Paul is teaching me what the c5 is all about that I have installed. I have not a clue about this kind of information.
With him keeping it very basic I am learning. So give him some time to get into the meat of this subject, so I can explain what the c5 is about while on my trip next summer.

 

[C5Performance]

wilcoy02 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:47 am[/url]":12jzgpsu]
Paul is teaching me what the c5 is all about that I have installed. I have not a clue about this kind of information.
With him keeping it very basic I am learning. So give him some time to get into the meat of this subject, so I can explain what the c5 is about while on my trip next summer.

Thank you.

My goal was first to be sure everyone understands what "timing" and "load" really are. Dan is helping us calibrate a VOES switch for use on Goldwings and I know from phone calls and emails that many people don't really grasp what the heck a timing curve even means.
So before we started talking about changing curves, adding VOES parts, and setting vacuum.......we needed to explain basics.

Maybe right now I should summarize what we've discussed so far. If there is point that is confusing, lets review before moving on. Once we all understand what the VOES does, then we can talk about the how/why you might want to bypass it (the hot rodders).

1) The term "Timing" or "Timing Curve" describes the matching of FUEL IGNITION (via spark plug) to the location of the PISTON/CRANK which is always moving.

2) The "timing" of the spark event changes as piston speed increases (even on a lawn mower). This means as the piston moves toward the top faster, we must ignite the fuel sooner, giving it time to burn and EXPAND at the right time for maximum power.

3) The "timing" of the spark event must match the BURN RATE of the fuel you are using (lets say 89 octane unleaded) and the rpm of the engine at that point, to maximize efficiency of the expanding fuel pushing down onto the piston.

3) As your engine LOAD increases, the fuel BURN RATE becomes faster. Regardless of what rpm your engine is running, the timing needs to be reduced as the fuel burn rate becomes faster.

!!! Take a moment and read those 3 items again. Your piston moves slower at idle so the spark plug ignites the fuel fairly close to the top (maybe 20 degrees of crank rotation away from TDC) but as the piston begins coming up faster, we need to ignite the fuel sooner (say 30 or 40 degrees before the top) in order for the "Maximum Cylinder Pressure" to happen at the correct time. If that doesn't happen we lose power (efficiency). All this talk about timing is simply a method of using your gasoline to push down the piston in the most EFFICIENT way possible.

4) Two methods can be used to handle an increased engine LOAD. You can down shift to a lower gear which reduces load mechanically via gear reduction. You can also reduce the timing so the spark timing matches the fuel burn rate better (retard timing).


If we shift to a lower gear, problem solved. If we prefer to stay in a higher gear, we need to change timing. There are several ways. Use toggle switches, use a rotary type switch, use a VOES to do it automatically. That is what this thread is all about.

 

[dan filipi]

Very good explanation Paul!! :salute:

That one post is the beat all in describing what is going on with timing and why it's so important.

 

[joedrum]

it very amazing all this ignition has to offer for the oldwing ....personally i want to travel with the best possible timing curve one could use for the conditions at hand ..... seems to me ..even if there is not a super load on your bike at speed or traveling ... there is choice to have a curve that matches the rpm and throttle position ...to me this seems to be a consideration too not just load ...maybe better mpg ?

 

[slabghost]

Better MPG has less to do with timing than throttle control. Easy on the throttle, get to top gear with the least throttle and time possible and ride like a Granny and you'll get the best MPG possible.

 

[C5Performance]

canuckxxxx » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:07 am[/url]":1w6jf3jp]

dan filipi » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:58 am[/url]":1w6jf3jp]

canuckxxxx » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:52 am[/url]":1w6jf3jp]
Seems odd to me that, in this day and age, you have to manually switch to different ignition curves for load changes like going up hills. Is C5 working on encorporating vacuum or any other inputs into their system to make it seamless and automatic?

Thanks
Brian

That is what this thread is about.

Of course I can see what you are doing and why you are doing it and it seems like the next logical refinement to the C5 system. But I want to know if C5 is planning to add this to their kits. In post #11 it sounded like they are suggesting people buy a VOS like you did.

Brian

I might offer on our website but eBay, Amazon, and Harley dealers already stock them. I will recommend the correct one after Dan verifies what is best for the Wing.

For those riding Urals, Dneprs, Viragos, CB350F/400F/500/550/650/750, Moto Guzzi, CBX....the same discussion here applies to any vehicle. That is what I find so interesting. This information even relates to dad's old firewood hauling farm truck (International with 6 cyl engine).

 

[dan filipi]

One of the steps in setting up this switch is deciding which curve to switch to.

Curve 1 is 40 degrees full advance.
When I tested, I switched to curve 3 which drops full advance to 35 degrees.
This eliminated the detonation but under certain throttle twists, as I twisted to full load, I heard a hint of a ping yet.

How would we go about figuring the full advance (curve) we should drop back to?

 

[slabghost]

5 degree drop was almost enough. I'd say try 2 degrees more drop.

 

[PowerArc]

dan filipi » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:19 am[/url]":ickidctj]
One of the steps in setting up this switch is deciding which curve to switch to.

Curve 1 is 40 degrees full advance.
When I tested, I switched to curve 3 which drops full advance to 35 degrees.
This eliminated the detonation but under certain throttle twists, as I twisted to full load, I heard a hint of a ping yet.

How would we go about figuring the full advance (curve) we should drop back to?

If timing was everything we wouldn't need a transmission, sometimes you need to downshift. Proper timing to match load requirements and maximum consistent burn (expansion) of fuel are what you trying to achieve. Dan will soon be able to easily program his ignition test these changes and you will find the edge, this just may not be where you want to leave it. You don't want a curve so tight that a simple gas station or temperature change would affect engine performance drastically.

Honda has a good example to use and that is the CB series, the 350 - 750 SOHC 4 cylinder to show a point. The ignition timing and flyweights are virtually the same. We know they have dramatically different engine performance and they run the same fuel so what is the difference? (Gearing)

What you are all discussing is called tuning and its great to see an open exchange of information and ideas. Just remember every engine, rider and location are different and there can be many ways to achieve the same end result. One of the most important points of tuning is knowing how you ride or use the bike and what you want it to do.

 

[Steve83]

I'm lovin' this thread! Thanks to you all!

 

[C5Performance]

A great example of gearing (or lack of it) is the Kawasaki Vulcan 1500. It was a torque monster and Kawasaki sold it with a 4 speed transmission. You could short shift or lug the engine all you wanted, but it did have detonation no matter what fuel you used. It also was horribly under geared for freeway travel and a few years into it....Kawasaki began using a 5 speed transmission. It became a much nicer bike after that, and we sold more because of it.

 

[C5Performance]

I have a friend on Facebook who asked me to clarify "Burn rate" and its relationship to rpm. He wondered if we increase timing advance because the burn rate gets faster as rpm increases.

Let me clarify a few things...

Every "FUEL" has a specific burn rate. Gasoline, Diesel, Propane, etc...

If all other things are unchanged, does burn rate change with engine rpm? For now my answer is NO.

Piston speed increases which is why timing changes as your engine revs up.

Does anything change burn rate? YES. Increases in engine load speeds up the burn rate. So creating a timing curve based purely on rpm will not handle changes in load.
That is why we either change gears or reduce timing advance when going up a hill, pulling a trailer, or carrying an extra person.

So even if my super powerful engine can carry me up a mountain with no drop in rpm, the burn rate still changes? YES.

Burn rate is related to your fuel and load, not your rpm.
Proper timing must be matched to the above items. As rpm increases you also increase the lead time needed to burn the fuel.

Some engines are more capable of handling the increased load better than others (Hooch versus a standard Goldwing).

One thing we have not discussed is the changes in engine efficiency at various engine rpms. This will take the idea of a straight timing curve and throw in a few twists and turns.
Is it related to using a VOES switch? Yes, I believe it is. More to come...

 

[Odd Molly]

Did this thread die?? This is very interesting, and I wonder if its possible to hook up, for example, a MAP sensor or whatever sensor you want to these sensor inputs, and make more complex maps?

 

[slabghost]

With the C5 ignition you can make spark at any point you like. You can vary the spread of the three sparks per cycle. You can set the rev limiter where you like also. So you are free to make your map as complicated or simple as you like without added circuitry. The C5 has 4 settings that can be different maps. This thread was simply a hands off way to go from an advanced curve used for light one up riding to a more conservative curve for heavier loads.

 

[joedrum]

In my opinion the voes switch is not a good mod. Vacuum has no brain ...and can't beat a switch that you control....personally I don't think going from one advance to another really does anything good ...once you get a good timing going for motor ...it pretty much is the best for situations....

 

[Odd Molly]

Ok, let me rephrase the question.....
How do you use the analog input mode on the input sensors?

The analog input has a analog input to my understanding... the Q is what you can use it for.... for example a MAP sensor to relate to this thread.
There are a couple of different ways the way I see it.
1. A fully mapable range, which could seamless retard(or advance) timing in relation to load, to be able to fine tune the vacuum remote timing to maybe prevent the cons of an on/off VOES
2. A "smart" switch with a adjustable threshold to be able to take the advantages of a MAP sensor
3. A "stupid" switch with a set threshold to use with a existing MAP sensor
4. Some other way

It would be great if C5Performance or PowerArc could give som info about how it works, and most of all.....continue the ongoing lesson in how load and other factors affects burn rate etc. etc.....

It´s a couple of years since he left this thread with "more to come", so I thought he forgot, maybe cause there was no interest in this thread...but I´m interested.....

 

[slabghost]

Okay maybe I can clarify this or maybe I'm out in left field with a hockey stick. It is my understanding there is no analog input or input of any kind really once the unit is programmed for the desired curves. The 4 curves installed are 1 both wires not grounded 2 one wire grounded 3 the other wire grounded and 4 both wires grounded. So two wires control the selection of the 4 curves. The VOES simply selects the next lower curve by grounding or ungrounding one wire. Using the vacuum to determine when load is high enough to need the lower (retarded spark ) curve.

 

[dan filipi]

slabghost » 9 minutes ago[/url]":16ua1ywo]
Okay maybe I can clarify this or maybe I'm out in left field with a hockey stick. It is my understanding there is no analog input or input of any kind really once the unit is programmed for the desired curves. The 4 curves installed are 1 both wires not grounded 2 one wire grounded 3 the other wire grounded and 4 both wires grounded. So two wires control the selection of the 4 curves. The VOES simply selects the next lower curve by grounding or ungrounding one wire. Using the vacuum to determine when load is high enough to need the lower (retarded spark ) curve.

That is correct. There is no varying input capability of any kind in the C5 ignition beyond it's pre-programmed curves as you explained.
The intent of this thread was to take advantage of those pre-programmed curves under varying engine loads.