For the Iggy technoids.

[joedrum]

hmmm you left the biggest deal connections ......this wil be interesting .....you can have the best match possible and if the connection are crap or just one its no match at all anymore ....this is like travaling in the swamps in fla ....your next step in a seemingly solid ground area and you free fall strait under the ground ...first time this happen to me I was of single digit age ....the last time this happen I was in my thirties ....no matte how good you think you know the swamp its never good enough .... :heat: :swoon: :mrgreen:

 

[David Mantle]

Some coils use ballast resisters that help prevent overload on ignition amplifiers.
Just a thought - hope it helps..

 

[Ansimp]

It's the amount of current required that damages points and possibly some solid state ignitions. Think of it like a solenoid small current circuit (start switch) to switch big current circuit( starter motor). Ignition is similar points/cdi (small) to fire coil (big).

 

[backlander]

It's like the movie title, "It's Complicated". This article I'm fixing to provide a link to breaks it down and explained it all to me when I was studying ignition systems. It's very good and written on a level even I could understand which says a lot. I ain't the smartest puppy in the litter. https://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html Enjoy. I did.

 

[joedrum]

points do pass the charge and are triggers ...electronic ignitions cant handle anything like points do and amps are provided to work the coils ...and this is what gose out in electronic ignitions ...om dyna s ignitions this is in the modual inside the ignition and they cant handle anything off at all ...but its amazing how lon a dyna can work with boundries so narrow.....

there is the hondaman iggy that uses points as triggers in the sense your talking and has amplifier to boost spark im looking into it my self ...I feel points in this enviroment can last forever .....

 

[David Mantle]

Another link that might help explain how coils work. The article is for cars but motorcycle use EXACTLY the same principles.
https://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_igniti ... rk_in_cars

Hope it helps.

 

[dan filipi]

And one of the things that intriques me about the C5 ignition is its electronics and coil characteristics.
If I understand correctly, because the coil charge is timed much better the coils don't need to be charged as long as with points.
Maybe c5ignitions could elaborate more on this.

 

[Ansimp]

Fetacheese » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:30 am[/url]":eizanctn].From what you guys are posting /have posted and from the Link the good man Backlander provided us, it seems to me if not for the modules in the CDI system and or points in the old type the coils would not have enough time to charge themselves for the next firing,as they would be on a continual discharge? . So in actuality, The ignitions main function is not to charge (provide voltage) to the coils, but rather it's function is to serve as an interrupter while the cam lobe directs the charge ( zap) to the proper cylinder ?
Now I'm all %%$ up :head bang:

I take it that the wiki article confirmed what you stated above which is correct :good:

 

[PowerArc]

If the ignitions main function (points/ electronic) is to give signal to the coil as to when to fire, and or if the coils main function is to discharge it's load . How then can the wrong coil (too hot) cause ill affects to the points,or electronic ignition. I would think once the ignition gave the signal to the coils it does not care if it's the right coil or not

A points type or TCI (Transistor Control Ignition) both induction type ignitions: why they get hot
Both are a switch turning the coil on and off (charging / discharging) the coil primary (electromagnet), points are mechanical switch and TCI is an electronic switch. Now why do they get hot? It's all ohms law (Amps = Volts / Ohms) if you have a 12 volt system and turn on a 3 ohm load (coil primary) you are drawing 4 amps with points the coil is normally 5 ohms and at 12 volts would draw 2.4 amps. If you were to substitute a HEI or CDI type coil being 0.7 to 0.3 ohms resistance, let's use ohms law once more. 12 volts divided by 0.3 and you get 40 amps current draw BIG HEAT. A ballast resistor can be used but you are moving the heat and voltage drop to the resistor, bad idea. A ballast resistor is for other purposes. Points can not sustain this very long and the transistor would normally is rated at 8 amps, something is going to melt. There are many, many more aspects to this and would take much to long of a post but I would like to cover a few more, maybe later this evening.

 

[joedrum]

wow great post and clear to understand thanks keep it coming

 

[dan filipi]

joedrum » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:27 pm[/url]":2zt7fm7e]
wow great post and clear to understand thanks keep it coming

+1

 

[Ansimp]

+2 :good:

 

[PowerArc]

And one of the things that intrigues me about the C5 ignition is its electronics and coil characteristics.
If I understand correctly, because the coil charge is timed much better the coils don't need to be charged as long as with points.

Multifaceted question, lets start with coil saturation or dwell and a second post on basic coil design.
Coil saturation is the time the coil is on or charging in degrees of crank angle. Points have no way to control this other than the time they are closed and this is fixed thorough out the entire spectrum of the engines operation. The points need to be closed long enough to charge the coil enough that it will jump the spark plug gap, the higher the RPM the less charge time. So if you increase the saturation to optimum for the big end you also increase the on time at an idle.

Example:
At 10,000 RPM the engine completes each crank revolution in 0.006 seconds or 6 ms.
At 1 RPM with a coil on time of 36° of dwell it would charge or be on for 10 seconds. 36° is 10% of 360° and 10% of 60 seconds = 6 seconds.
So at 100 RPM you would divide 6 seconds by 100, getting a total on time of .06 second, 1000 RPM - 0.006 and at 10,000 RPM you would get 0.0006 second.

Since you know you only need the coil to be on for milliseconds, why would not shorten it at a low RPM? The less the coil on time (dwell or saturation) the less the total current and the cooler the coil will operate.

Idle in a parade and see how hot your coil gets

 

[C5Performance]

PowerArc » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:55 pm[/url]":2yrd0ub9]

And one of the things that intrigues me about the C5 ignition is its electronics and coil characteristics.
If I understand correctly, because the coil charge is timed much better the coils don't need to be charged as long as with points.

Since you know you only need the coil to be on for milliseconds, why would not shorten it at a low RPM? The less the coil on time (dwell or saturation) the less the total current and the cooler the coil will operate.

Idle in a parade and see how hot your coil gets

I love the example. As service manager, we've heard many explanations from customers of their cycle dying in traffic, at stop lights, or while idling in the driveway ready to leave for a ride. Heat is bad, and coil failures happen more than most "gearheads" think.

I met Gary when i started buying PowerArc ignitions for all my CB750's. After experiencing coil failures on several bikes in my collection, i decided to buy the "last ignition system" i'd ever need, and spent the extra cash. Boy was that a great decision.

 

[PowerArc]

Most ignition coils are similar in design and share many similarities let's cover 2 induction type coil designs.
Paper section and section bobbin in a very simplistic over view.

Both have a primary and secondary winding around a laminated iron core, this may be a I, C or E design. The difference is in the way it is wound around the laminated iron core, from here out referred to as the core.

Paper Section: 3 Ohm coil
Isolation, normally paper is wound around the core and the primary is wound around the paper covered core winding from one end to other overlapping until you have about 60 ft. of #26 gauge wire giving you 3 Ω. When you apply voltage to each end of the 60' wire you get a electromagnetic field. Now you wrap a paper around the primary and wind approximately 6000 ft. of 42 gauge wire (about the size of your hair) to create the secondary. Starting at one end winding the 42 gauge wire over the primary winding its full length, stop add a layer of paper and wind the wire in the reverse direction until you reach the end of the primary add paper and repeat until you have about 6000' of wire or 11,500 Ω. Finish by adding a final wrap of paper, taping off. Termination of the wires depends upon the type of coil being made i. e wasted spark or single tower. Throw the wound core in a sealed tank, pull a low vacuum, injection some Isonel - a high temperature polyester enamel, remove and let dry.

Section Bobbin:
The primary and secondary are wound around molded bobbins with no paper for isolation. The both are wound with the same gauge with wire but no paper is required for isolation of the windings. The primary bobbin when wound slide perfectly over the core and the secondary fits matching the primary bobbin. Isolation is achieved in the secondary by winding the 42 gauge wire across the bobbin which has many pockets. Imagine an electric fence post insulator. When finished it is back potted with a filled epoxy resin.

Why did I have to subject you to that! conclusion

The paper section coil can be greatly effected by how tightly they are wound and the paper itself causes inefficiencies due to gap. If wound to tight you will not get penetration of the Isonel needed to isolate the secondary windings. If wound to loose the efficiency is greatly compromised.

The section bobbin can be wound uniformly consistent, isolation, rise and fall times are incredible. Size is smaller and choice of core is wider making greater outputs possible.

There is so much more to say and I want to keep things simple and brief. You guys need to get involved because ignition topics are many and few understood.

references if you wish to continue

https://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html My favorite and listed above, has a picture of a section bobbin coil labeled modern coil.
https://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ition.html Simple, straight forward explanation of induction ignition system.

 

[joedrum]

lots to read im getting there ...very good stuff

 

[PowerArc]

Pictures of a paper section coil core, section bobbin and a section bobbin with partial laminates inserted.

 

[joedrum]

just really good stuff ..sheesh I was impressed to some degree I was on the trail pretty good not knowing much to start with

 

[PowerArc]

Ballast Resistors:

A ballast resistor is common in many cars older cars, and was put inline with the power (+) to the coil. When the starter is engaged a relay bypassed the ballast resistor supplying full voltage to the coil to correct the voltage drop in the system that occurred when the starter was engaged (200-300 amps). When the starter motor is disengaged the system voltage returns to normal and the bypass relay opened and the ballast resistor is back inline for normal run state. This doesn't seem to be the case with the Goldwings.

In reviewing the manuals Goldwings with points had no ballast resistors and when they switched to electronic ignitions 1978-83 had a ballast resistor. My guess is the electronics were new, they wanted to use a 3Ω coil but opted to reduce the total current draw on the electronic components by adding a ballast resistor. I will need some help but I would guess the points coils are 4.5 to 5Ω, I know the 78-83 are 2.6-3.2Ω.

OK now do some math, if you have a 1.5Ω resistor in line (series) with a 3Ω coil you have 4.5Ω of resistance. Wow, I can use a section bobbin coil with my points. Whoa down now, remember points don't have saturation control and the newer section bobbin epoxy encapsulated coils were not designed for points. They may work great for awhile, say until you get stuck in rush hour traffic for and hour at 100° (no warranty here). Look at the the design of the Honda coil, it has an "I" core with the core lamination protruding from both ends of the coil and you bolt them to the frame. What a way to sink the heat out of the core of the coil. Problem is "I" core paper section coils don't have great output properties having much slower rise and fall times.

Now let's answer the aged question "Hotter coils for 1100 (Dodge Neon Retro)", a Dodge Neon coil tests at 0.45-0.65Ω. Back to the math, use an average Neon coil ohmage of 0.6Ω for the coil and a 12 volt system, 12 volt ÷ 0.6Ω = 20 amps. Your points will glow and better up the gauge on those wires. Oh, I know we will add a ballast resistor, it will take a 4Ω Resistor so 12 volts ÷ (4 + 0.6Ω) = 2.6 amps. Now let's figure the wattage of the resistor required, 12 volts X 2.6 amps = 31.2 Watts / derated by a minimum of 50% due to heat 64.4 watts. Now were right back to remember points don't have saturation control and the newer section bobbin epoxy encapsulated coils were not designed for points. Someone should try it, just stay close to home.

If you do wish to try this or replace ballast resistors on existing bikes you could use 2 of the 1.5Ω 50 watt Arcol resistors show in the picture and instead of putting 1 in the +12 volt feed to the coil you could put 1 on each of the trigger wires to the coil. This would effectively split the power so that there was 1 resistor for each coil core and run the resistors cooler, higher wattages are available.

 

[Steve83]

Gotta love learning! Thanks for taking the time to do all this explaning.