Ignition coil theory

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skiri251

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As some of you know I had an ignition problem for '68 CL125A twin.
It finally went away with a new ignition coil.
I start a new thread here so more people will look at it and help me understand.

The symptoms were:

Difficult to start
Difficult to maintain idle
Misfire under load (rev's okay in neutral but stumbles when taking off)

The problematic igntion coil (dual output) had 0.4 ohm primary and 7.9K ohm secondary resistance.
A new coil has 1.1 ohm primary and 14K ohm secondary resistance.

I am wondering why the former coil caused problems (other than it was just plain faulty..)

Suppose the former coil was electrically/magnetically/mechanically good:

Why did it cause problems?

Lower primary resistance means more current flow, also implies lower inductance.
Can this mean faster rise time and more overall stored energy before the contact points open?
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=220752#p220752:1ufv4e9h said:
pidjones » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:04 pm[/url]":1ufv4e9h]
Could also mean shorted windings, broken down insulation.

Yes. But the thing is this former coil is only three months old. I bought it from eBay last November.
I remember the primary reading was 0.4 ohm when it arrived. (Couldn't measure the secondary because I didn't know secondary was connected between the two HT leads.)

So the coil was a defect (no one in his right mind designs a coil like this) and I didn't notice it because it produced sparks?
 
skiri251":65pjqt3n said:
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=220752#p220752:65pjqt3n said:
pidjones » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:04 pm[/url]":65pjqt3n]
Could also mean shorted windings, broken down insulation.

Yes. But the thing is this former coil is only three months old. I bought it from eBay last November.
I remember the primary reading was 0.4 ohm when it arrived. (Couldn't measure the secondary because I didn't know secondary was connected between the two HT leads.)

So the coil was a defect (no one in his right mind designs a coil like this) and I didn't notice it because it produced sparks?
.4 Ohms seems way too low for the primary. Did you check aganst the specs for the bike?
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=220775#p220775:19wu0j9f said:
pidjones » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:02 am[/url]":19wu0j9f]
skiri251":19wu0j9f said:
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=220752#p220752:19wu0j9f said:
pidjones » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:04 pm[/url]":19wu0j9f]
Could also mean shorted windings, broken down insulation.

Yes. But the thing is this former coil is only three months old. I bought it from eBay last November.
I remember the primary reading was 0.4 ohm when it arrived. (Couldn't measure the secondary because I didn't know secondary was connected between the two HT leads.)

So the coil was a defect (no one in his right mind designs a coil like this) and I didn't notice it because it produced sparks?
.4 Ohms seems way too low for the primary. Did you check aganst the specs for the bike?

The shop manual says max. primary current of 4.3 amps. So it's around 1.5 ohms @ 6.4V battery voltage.
Yes, so 0.4 ohm is really low. I looked at my notes and it seems the coil had 1.0 ohm primary resistance when it arrived.
So whatever I did (just installed the coil and used it) broke it.
Maybe the coil was borderline faulty and broke immediately in use.

But what I really want to know is the theory behind it (why 0.4 ohm causes misfire and hard start.)

Low resistance means more steady state current with less inductance. (I assume.)
That means the coil is charged quicker and stores more energy (inductance x steady state current squared / 2) which sounds good.
(Of cource too much current may heat up the coil windings and destory insulation eventually.)
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=220788#p220788:3gybijmk said:
pidjones » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:17 pm[/url]":3gybijmk]
Shorted coils mean fewer inducing current flow in the secondary.

From that point of view yes.
But suppose you design it that way from the beginning. Less primary turns, matched by less secondary turns.

They say typical primary resistance ranges 0.5 ~ 2 ohms. So 0.4 ohm primary resistance coil can be made to work.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=220794#p220794:1pu9qupw said:
pidjones » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:23 am[/url]":1pu9qupw]
It isn't the resistance, but the current times the number of turns (refered to as amp-turns sometimes).

Yes, but I didn't manufacture the coil so measuring the resistance is the only way to guess the turns.
More turns, more wire length, more resistance.

The current is determined by coil inductance (transient) and resistance (steady state.)
I see lots of LR circuit voltage/current over time graphs on google.
I am just curious how ignition coil designers use those curves (do they let them go all the way to steady state, etc.)

I guess I should hook up an oscilloscope and look at primary current waveform.
I can't find any on google.

inductor-ind53.gif
 
Found this:
gt387-example-waveform-01.png


It looks like nowhere near the steady state.
But hard to tell exactly what part of the curve is used because no info on coil inductance and resistance..
 
Found this too (actually there are lots of waveforms on google)
4594411826_69e730234f_o.gif


This one looks like reached steady state.
But these waveforms are from modern automotive which don't use points but transisterized ignition so not sure if they are good reference.
 
The ignition coil's basic operation doesn't change, but how it's designed and manufactured has everything to do with how it performs as a component through the system. A battery-point-coil system, for example, is totally different from a CDI system, which is totally different from a combination flying magnet/CDI unit, or a magneto.

The coil you had was showing you numbers, and you're trying to make sense of it... but realize, what you're seeing on a DC ohmmeter is, for all practical purposes, irrelevant for any purpose other than detecting a basic problem.

A vacuum cleaner is noisy. If you use a DB meter to measure how loud it is, and compare that to a non-working vacuum cleaner that is just-as-loud, you haven't really established anything. If it were HALF as loud, would it only be working HALF as much? Not necessarily...

The coil was clearly shorted somewhere. It may have been shorted within the primary, and it may have been shorted in the secondary, and it may have been shorted to the CORE... or it may have been shorted BETWEEN primary and secondary... and it MAY be that there's JUST enough insulation resistance so that such a short isn't detectable by a (fraction of a volt) VOM... but when in operation, the voltages appearing against those insulating barriers were a WORLD higher, and thus, breakdown was occurring internally that was NOT detectable on your meter.

I realize that today's world sources parts electronically, Ebay would not be my choice for a 'preferred manufacturer' ;-) I would bet that the part you got was neither OEM, nor a 'reliable aftermarket' branch of the supply chain... more likely, if you were to open and unwind it, you'd find that it was built worthy of very short life from the git-go...

Even quality-made items fail. Suppliers who are REALLY concerned about quality not only apply stringent QC practices, they also apply QA (100% testing) where the market demand is willing to pay the cost. That's where industrial manufacturers guarantee a 'burn-in'... but I doubt you'd find much of that at the motorcycle parts level... save for OEM through Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki...
 
[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=221158#p221158:2yxzf87n said:
DaveKamp » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:49 pm[/url]":2yxzf87n]
The ignition coil's basic operation doesn't change, but how it's designed and manufactured has everything to do with how it performs as a component through the system. A battery-point-coil system, for example, is totally different from a CDI system, which is totally different from a combination flying magnet/CDI unit, or a magneto.

The coil you had was showing you numbers, and you're trying to make sense of it... but realize, what you're seeing on a DC ohmmeter is, for all practical purposes, irrelevant for any purpose other than detecting a basic problem.

A vacuum cleaner is noisy. If you use a DB meter to measure how loud it is, and compare that to a non-working vacuum cleaner that is just-as-loud, you haven't really established anything. If it were HALF as loud, would it only be working HALF as much? Not necessarily...

The coil was clearly shorted somewhere. It may have been shorted within the primary, and it may have been shorted in the secondary, and it may have been shorted to the CORE... or it may have been shorted BETWEEN primary and secondary... and it MAY be that there's JUST enough insulation resistance so that such a short isn't detectable by a (fraction of a volt) VOM... but when in operation, the voltages appearing against those insulating barriers were a WORLD higher, and thus, breakdown was occurring internally that was NOT detectable on your meter.

I realize that today's world sources parts electronically, Ebay would not be my choice for a 'preferred manufacturer' ;-) I would bet that the part you got was neither OEM, nor a 'reliable aftermarket' branch of the supply chain... more likely, if you were to open and unwind it, you'd find that it was built worthy of very short life from the git-go...

Even quality-made items fail. Suppliers who are REALLY concerned about quality not only apply stringent QC practices, they also apply QA (100% testing) where the market demand is willing to pay the cost. That's where industrial manufacturers guarantee a 'burn-in'... but I doubt you'd find much of that at the motorcycle parts level... save for OEM through Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki...

Well, my confusion came from not remembering the original primary resistance correctly.
I thought it was 0.4 ohm as new but actually it was 1.1 ohm. It took a while for me to realize this.
If I had known that 1.1 ohm primary resistance suddenly became 0.4 after a very short use, I could have said it's a coil failure (short somewhere as you say.)

It's a 1967 motorcycle so no OEM coils readily available (unless I am lucky enough to find NOS somewhere).
The previous working coil was EMGO (Taiwanese) and it was okay until dying battery killed it.
The next one from eBay had no name which failed shortly (as I know now.)
The current one is EMGO again.
 
Okay, well, that does happen.

FWIW... I had a feller on another forum who had a very special voltage-sensitive control relay from a generator built in the late 1920's... the coil was totally shot. I wound him a new one... and I'd think that with a similar process, a guy would be able to wind himself a replacement for an unobtanium ignition coil... so if the one you have doesn't work out, send me the junk one, and I'll see what I can do...
 
[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=221170#p221170:vy1vzjvi said:
DaveKamp » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:43 am[/url]":vy1vzjvi]
Okay, well, that does happen.

FWIW... I had a feller on another forum who had a very special voltage-sensitive control relay from a generator built in the late 1920's... the coil was totally shot. I wound him a new one... and I'd think that with a similar process, a guy would be able to wind himself a replacement for an unobtanium ignition coil... so if the one you have doesn't work out, send me the junk one, and I'll see what I can do...

Did you hand wind that coil?

The EMGO coil seems to be working fine.
I realized replacement China so-called "regulator/rectifier" actually did not regulate the voltage at all.
That must have caused premature battery (AGM) death.
Now I have step down DC-DC (from China, of course) as a voltage regulator.
 
Did you hand wind that coil?

Sorta. I made a pseudo-gadget with turns counter that clamped onto the carriage of my lathe, and fed onto the spool, which was mounted in spindle with a C5 collet. It was by no means exact in positioning, but it worked out dandy.

Here's the thread, dunno if the pix are visible without registering, but hope so:
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/1a21-generator-24volt-generator-relay.199262/#post-1657293

The EMGO coil seems to be working fine.
I realized replacement China so-called "regulator/rectifier" actually did not regulate the voltage at all.
That must have caused premature battery (AGM) death.
Now I have step down DC-DC (from China, of course) as a voltage regulator.

Yeah, well... MOST motorcycle charging systems work on the design principle invented by a feller (who's name I cannot remember) and implemented into Mercury Outboards' product (somewhat against Carl Keikhaefer's desires) through the spearheading of his chief engineer and right-hand man Charlie Strang.

The permanent magnet stator spins inside (or outside) a stator ring with many polepieces and windings. The result is unregulated AC. This AC comes out of the rectifier to a rectifier-regulator unit. It doesn't 'rectify' so much as it just 'chops off' excess above a certain voltage... it is a 'crowbar' regulator of sorts.

My GN400 (and you know 'em well) was built with a 6v system... a permanent magnet rotor, and a stator to a 3-phase regulator-rectifier.

When I built it into a 'cafe-type', I nixed the battery, and just about everything ELSE electric... I left it with a headlamp and a taillamp that are basically just 'on when running'... and the horn is there (but just for looks).

I used a very large headlamp bucket... I THOUGHT it was for a GL1000, but I just found it on the ground at a motorcycle boneyard, it looked right, so I snagged it... Might'a been from a '70's Yamaha, or Suzi, I really don't know, but it's 12v.

Here's how the regulation scheme works:

AC pulses come into a rectifier on three phases, and they're 120 degrees out of phase for each (like common 3ph power). The rectifier chops the bottom sides of the waveform, and 'flips' them to the top... so now there's six pulses going up, every 60 degrees.

After that, is a very stout transistor (typically a MOSFET) who's GATE is a zener diode set to around 14.6v or so. Any pulse that exceeds that threshold causes the transistor to short the stator's output to ground, until voltage drops back down below 14.6

So yes, when voltage gets that high, it actually SHORTS the stator's output to ground.

If that seems wildly dangerous, consider this:

The stator is an induction coil. It has internal resistance, so current flow through the coil will NEVER exceed applied voltage divided by R. Let's say that the STATOR's total design output is 10A at 14.6v... that's 3.33A per phase. 3.33A at 14.6v means the winding is at LEAST 5 ohms, and output is around 40w. In REALITY, it's a 3-phase stator, so that coil could be as low as 3.5 ohms or so between centerpoint and each leg (because the other two are resistive too, right? Regardless, at full-snot, by virtue of resistance, the stator's output will NEVER exceed 14.6 / 5 = 3A or so PER LEG.

Now, as engine speed increases, FREQUENCY through the stator increases. Since the field is a permanent magnet, it doesn't increase or decrease, so that means stator VOLTAGE output increases with speed.

At least, until the inductive reactance of the stator coil assembly (the coils, wired in WYE, and the stator frame being made of silicon steel with some level of permeability, right), as frequency increases, voltage does, until you hit the 'brick wall' created by 2piFC... and at that point, output starts to drop FAST.

A motorcycle needs most of it's charging current available just a smidgen above idle, and it needs to be able to hold that 'till about 2500rpm or so. The VOLTAGE at that speed, though, is kinda low... usually they're just BARELY AT charging voltage (14.2) at idle or just above... which means full AVAILABLE current flow to the auxiliaries and battery, and as soon as the throttle comes up, voltage starts climbing. By mebbie 3500, you'll be approaching cutoff voltage of 14.6... but by 4500, inductive reactance starts to rise rapidly, because rotating frequency is climbing... but CURRENT is starting to fall off... consequently, VOLTAGE is 'flat lines'. Essentially, XsubL , in conjuction with the speed of the spinning rotor, has caused the stator to become magnetically self-saturated, so the rectifier's regulator block doesn't have anything to do.

It is extremely fascinating to see all this electrophysics in operation... an amazingly simple circumstance that occurs as a natural product of applied physics.

I MADE the shunt regulator unit for my GN. I used a 3ph rectifier, a MOSFET and a zener diode, set it for 14.6v. Engine starts, my system voltage is about 5v, and the headlamp glows dim. Bring up the throttle, and it gets brighter. It's best above oh... whatever speed my tailbone best transmits vibration to my skull... I'm asking a bit more of the stator by going to six volts, but it hasn't fried anything yet. When following, it's not hard to tell when I've shifted gears... headlight goes bright on downshift, dims on upshift! ;-)

Taillight is LED... it's always bright. Mebbie I'll replace the headlamp with an LED too... back when I 'built' that pig, LED headlamps didn't exist.

Oh, and yes... AGMs do NOT like 'noisy' rectification/regulation. Even when the reguator is working 'right', AGMs tend to be intolerant of ripple. Adding a couple capacitors across the leads where they connect to the battery will help... and having a resistive load (ie. don't replace 'all' your incandescent/halogens with LED) will help.
 
I think CL125A has two phase ACG. And the stock only got celenium rectifier (not sure that regulates the voltage by nature or not.)
There are plenty of modern China-made "6V regulator/rectifier" for CL125A so I bought one. With that, the charging voltage goes from less than 6V at idle to 10V at 6K RPM (with 25W incandescent head light and whatver wattage tail light on).

Do you think that was the result of some sort of voltage regulation?

So I installed step down DC-DC converter and set output volatge to 7.7V (the voltage written on the AGM battery as deep cycle charging)
Then I rode around 20 miles. In that ride, I noticed the battery voltage was lower than 7V at crusing RPM (5K maybe) so I switched off the head light. (The voltage went up to 7.7V)
When I got home and hooked up the battery tender, it showed it was charging the battery.
So that is a bit worrying. I didn't check how long the tender was in charging state.

Then I installed an LED head bulb. With that, the volatge is around 7V at idle and reaches and stays at 7.7V above idle RPM but haven't gone for a test ride yet.
 
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