VW racer gets a C5 Ignition

[AApple]

C5Performance » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:16 pm[/url]":1ko2dy9f]
It was fun to play with. We spent all day testing, and ended up breaking the track record. Now we need someone who can help us get rules changed.
Does anyone have experience doing this? We could really use some help!

Contact yer local Congressman....they seem to be good at stuff like that.... :whistling:

What sanctioning body are you dealing with? Normally, to have a rules change effected, you would need quite a few participants to want it. Depending on the sanctioning body, it might be a futile effort....

 

[C5Performance]

AApple » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:54 pm[/url]":2wvyqsxe]

C5Performance » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:16 pm[/url]":2wvyqsxe]
It was fun to play with. We spent all day testing, and ended up breaking the track record. Now we need someone who can help us get rules changed.
Does anyone have experience doing this? We could really use some help!

Contact yer local Congressman....they seem to be good at stuff like that.... :whistling:

What sanctioning body are you dealing with? Normally, to have a rules change effected, you would need quite a few participants to want it. Depending on the sanctioning body, it might be a futile effort....

Right now it is TORC, which is sponsored by Traxxas. I hear they are being bought out (again) by another sanctioning body for next season.
I'm not sure how to go about it. Since I want to use this as a stepping stone into automotive production, it is very important to avoid dipping too far into grey areas.
We want to build ignitions that people will gladly pay for...not just want for free. MSD was the master at locking up racing series and still ended up going bankrupt.
There must be a better way....hmmmm (whats the emoticon for "thinking hard" )
:head bang:

 

[slabghost]

Just my opinion but I don't see racing as a good way to sell the product. If you can get more everyday drivers of cars and bikes using it. Their testimonials on performance and mpg increases will create more of the same. In time the racers will be upset they are forced to run inferior ignitions to the spectators ignitions. It would be embarrassing too if a few race cars were beaten by street cars running your ignition. Targeting the largest portion of the public is how most longstanding products began.

 

[C5Performance]

slabghost » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:36 am[/url]":2q7ddydr]
Just my opinion but I don't see racing as a good way to sell the product. If you can get more everyday drivers of cars and bikes using it. Their testimonials on performance and mpg increases will create more of the same. In time the racers will be upset they are forced to run inferior ignitions to the spectators ignitions. It would be embarrassing too if a few race cars were beaten by street cars running your ignition. Targeting the largest portion of the public is how most longstanding products began.

You are going to get a big hug from Gary at PowerArc now...lol. Seriously, we both agree that chasing sales from racers would be a poor direction, but I have a friend who asked us to build a system. They have a new car, with a new engine, and have repeated ignition failures. One caused an engine seizure which prompted them to look for a better kit.
We can't help him out with the existing rules in place. They are written in a way as to allow only certain aftermarket companies to compete.

As you might imagine, ours is not legal but MSD and Compufire can be used. I just want a fair playing field.
Ignition failure is very common on these cars, and we believe vibration is a big factor. PowerArc components are built to resist these types of failures using improved placement and superior parts.

 

[dan filipi]

Paul, have you had a chance to experiment with changing to other curves on the track with this install?

 

[AApple]

C5Performance » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:52 am[/url]":3trz7tba]
As you might imagine, ours is not legal but MSD and Compufire can be used.

What specifically is it that makes the C5 system "illegal"? Is it because it is not a distributer fired ignition(since you provide separate coil assemblies), or because you can alter the advance electronically, or what? Is there someplace on-line where the rules for this class are posted, so we can read them? Rules are made to be broken.....or at least bent waaaaay out of shape....Cale Yarborough was a MASTER at that.... :whistling:

 

[C5Performance]

AApple » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:32 am[/url]":18zj25va]

C5Performance » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:52 am[/url]":18zj25va]
As you might imagine, ours is not legal but MSD and Compufire can be used.

What specifically is it that makes the C5 system "illegal"? Is it because it is not a distributer fired ignition(since you provide separate coil assemblies), or because you can alter the advance electronically, or what? Is there someplace on-line where the rules for this class are posted, so we can read them? Rules are made to be broken.....or at least bent waaaaay out of shape....Cale Yarborough was a MASTER at that.... :whistling:

Here is the list from "Ignitions" section. We dont use a distributor in the traditional sense, although we can build one. We dont use a stock VW coil (or direct replacement), and we could be considered a direct fire ignition depending on how you read into the rules. We also do not use magnetic pickups.
It would appear they were trying to keep out hand built super techno stuff but ended up making it so just a few companies could be used.

26. IGNITION and ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS
Distributor must be used to send current to the spark plugs. Only one distributor allowed.
Allowed:
A. Battery ignition 6 or 12 volt. Stock or direct replacement coil only.
B. Any manufacturer distributor. Magnetic pick ups that directly replaces the points.
C. Any Volkswagen alternator or generator in the stock location.
C. Alternator and cooling fan must use the Type 1 design and the charging system must be
operational.
Not Allowed
Magneto, multiple coil and direct fire ignition system.

 

[slabghost]

eliminates some of the newer stock ignitions. No distributer .

 

[AApple]

Well...technically, your coil IS one coil... :yes:
And....if you get a system to fits completely in the stock type distributor, then technically, that would NOT be a direct fire, since it is not being run directly from the crankshaft.

B. Any manufacturer distributor

Or that's how I read it.

Looks like the real issue is the use of a single coil per cylinder. If ya'll could find a coil that would fire correctly, seems like that would solve the rules problem. They want the spark to go from the distributor cap out to the plugs. But Imma guessing that particular part don't exist.... :headscratch:

 

[slabghost]

Could always make the coil the distributer cap.

 

[C5Performance]

AApple » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:06 pm[/url]":gv0u87yp]
Well...technically, your coil IS one coil... :yes:
And....if you get a system to fits completely in the stock type distributor, then technically, that would NOT be a direct fire, since it is not being run directly from the crankshaft.

B. Any manufacturer distributor

Or that's how I read it.

Looks like the real issue is the use of a single coil per cylinder. If ya'll could find a coil that would fire correctly, seems like that would solve the rules problem. They want the spark to go from the distributor cap out to the plugs. But Imma guessing that particular part don't exist.... :headscratch:

We can install our parts in a standard distributor body that uses a cap. We can use our ST coil which appears similar to the coil in my little Festiva. We are not sure they'll allow an optic reader instead of magnets. I'l prefer to sell our VW kit with no added modifications.

Why bother making a kit for racing if you dont even sell it that way? Seems like a waste of time. Changing or clarifying the rules would be best.

 

[C5Performance]

slabghost » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:05 pm[/url]":32j05mph]
eliminates some of the newer stock ignitions. No distributer .

I brought that point to the attention of the director of rules. He said "we dont want modern electronics, we want the stuff VW installed from the factory to keep costs down".
I told him old VW parts are harder to find and our system would keep more cars in the race, which makes for more fun. This class has a high ignition failure rate.
Not sure what will happen but I'd sure love to have a shot at using our ignition on an air cooled boxer.

 

[C5Performance]

dan filipi » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:07 am[/url]":2o2ieatw]
Paul, have you had a chance to experiment with changing to other curves on the track with this install?

Dan, We installed toggle switches to change curves while driving but it is difficult to look at the dash when you are bouncing over jumps.
Jason only switched between 32 and 35, which he felt was all he needed for timing changes. Since you never run this engine at anything but BALLS OUT, it would probably not pay to use a MAP sensor. The car runs between 4-6,000 rpm all the time. Previous maximum timing they used was set at 32 (counting on the inaccuracy of the old ignition we felt it could handle 35 without burning down the engine.)

He thought 32 was stronger at low rpm but really ended up wanting only 35. As I mentioned before, the car never could get over 5700 rpm until we put the C5 on.
Now we are going to gear the car taller, so we dont have to shift as much so it will turn even better lap times. With increased gearing, we will probably have to back the timing down to 32 again but it wont matter if we can pull a higher gear than everyone else.