Time for me to address the 800lb Gorilla in the room.(Engine knock thread) REVIVED!

[dan filipi]

Good going Joe!

Did the cams seem to turn free enough not being broken in?

 

[joedrum]

i was surprised how well it sounded Dan when i was turning everything by the crank bolt i was oiling everything on the cam lobes and all and the journals were oil good during assembly .....i did a lot of work on the cam before assembly taking out the ridges and edges they seemed excessive to me me and lumpy ....so i went slow somewhat flexible sanding disc and went after it gently ....checking it in the light all the time ....when i thought i got it smooth and rough downed i polished it with some micro sheen sanding film .....did the rockers to .....all i can say right now is that its quiet and that can only mean that it smooth .....what ever breaking in now it dose will be smooth without trauma id think .....it was time well spent on the cams as i trued them up ......time will tell ....but i'm confident about the outcome .....

when it got up to temp it was running so good and smooth that i ran it up in the rpm zone ...it seemed to do okay at lower rpm but maybe not quite as good as the 1100 cams ....from 4000 to 7000 and more it seemed to really take off ....reminded me of a crouch rocket ....it could have been all in my mind cause that what i expected .....right now its running on the 1100 ignition and the 1000 ignition is just a cover for the cam that sticks out....

so Dan i think that prep work on the cam and rockers is mandatory of cam switch to different cam carrier and rockers :mrgreen:

 

[joedrum]

just to continue a thought dan .....it was obvious that theses cams from the 75 were running up and down on lumpy surface ....causing unequal pressure on the cams and rockers all the way to the valves ......when trued up the tension on the springs is smooth without ups and down over ridges causing ramping off the cams at high rpm which causes cam and rockers to crash into each other under different tension and causing uneven wear which creates even more lumpy wear .....and also causes loose tension on valve keepers and such setting up a failer machanicly.....on a smooth ride the cam and rocker just get smoother.....unless your testing the limits of the parts though drag racing and high rpm stupidity......

there seems to be no doubt that the 75 cams are right now smoother than the 1100 cams that were in it ......a smooth valve train is whorth some power and relibility in the pocket .....so in this respect the 75 cam job is an upgrade so far......

im looking out the window and its snowing .....i dont know if im going to be able to ride it today ....i still need to put stuff back together :mrgreen:

 

[joedrum]

okay its cold and cloudy .....i couldnt help it i went for a ride after putting it all back together.....well its just like you would think its a little down on power at lower rpm and labors wanting you to shift to lower gear but not bad it was smooth in this range ......when i got to the hiway i went after the upper rpm and it sang a power song much different than before ...at first iwasnt to impressed but look down and the 82 speedo was buried ..thats not hard to do but i could tell it was happing faster than before ......so after that i tried to shake off the cold and clear my mind and pay attension .....the second time i notice when i got after it would pull the forks up and though the entire hi end and only drop down when i went for another gear .....before it would bring the forks up hard at first then let the bike back down while still going though the gear .....so theres no doubt that the bike running harder in the upper rpm and keeps it power there without falling off .....with that said i did notice that it seemed that the carbs fall off around 6800 rpm ....but still pulled hard .....it surprised me how much different the bike sounded it was playing a different song....im sure that the advance on the 1100 ignition is a lot different and is a mismatch to the cam ....ive read somewhere that it can be changed ......so as it stands right now im okay with it and it is faster but ithink there is more to do here to get full benefit from the change im going to find out how much different the advance is between 1100 and 75 1000....and see what ican do .....i did this to get some insite on the 1200 project .....

one thing ican say for sure is i like a bike that dosnt fall off and just make noise after a certain rpm ....the 82 is fully dressed and its moving out strong but there is more tweaking to do and still lots of options at this stage still the biggest is switching to 1000 ignition and dyna setup ...i will probably ride it like this for awhile and see what i can do with it in its 1100 ignition mode ....i need more saddle time ....ive said a lot for only going less than five miles while i was freezing im happy it running good ....you sould have seen how bad the cams looked before i worked om them ....so far so good.... :music2: :music: :rocks: :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

....you sould have seen how bad the cams looked before i worked om them ....so far so good.... :music2: :music: :rocks: :mrgreen:

Pics Joe, PICS!

 

[joedrum]

now that ive had time to ponder where its at and how the ride went....im sure that the vacume advance drops out quickly with the 75 cams and it s all machanical advance from there ....im thinking that when that happens the advance falls back a little and thats what i felt not the carbs falling off or at least its more the advance than carbs ....theres no doutb that the 1100 carbs are going to run short as compared to the 1000s much bigger carbs but im leaning to the advance right now ....i have figure out how to advance the timing on the 82-83 ignition but i havnt look yet on how hard this might be in the frame deal.....that might be my next move ...ther might be a sweet spot there that will work good with the 75 cams....its probably going to come down to using the 75 ignition and dyna upgrade ...then the only mismatch will be carbs

 

[joedrum]

i braved the weather today and took the 1100 with 75 1000 cams install for a long ride ....it was cold but clear and clean air that only winter can bring ....i wrap all up in full gear and fullfaced helmet and had no problem enjoying myself ......

it would be hard to have any discounts to this modification ....this is one heck of an upgrade .....the motor runs like an angry porche and down low in the rpm it smooth as silk .....at around 3000rpm it hangs solid cruising at the lower end of the cam grind ...it dosnt like to thottle hard from there but it will pull up in rpm with easy pull on thr throttle....at 4000rpm its in its zone to roll on power and hits hard in a sweet sounding power assault that gose to 7000rpm easy ....there just no let down in this zone and realy makes the stock exhast talk ....ive never herd this bike sound like this ....the bike is more like an 70s inline four than a mild manner wing ....i think the 1100 carbs are the big reason its smoothness.....the bike made no engine noise at all ....this was one of the easiest mods with the biggest return that ive ever done on anything ....idont see how i could improve on it... :mrgreen:

this mod has led me to some conculsions ...the 83 had some noise in the motor and it was hard to identify what it was ..it was kinda scairy just thinking about what it might be ...but after working on it changing the cams i noticed that two of the rockers smears on them or discoloration and felt just slightly unsmooth ...thers no doutb in my mind now that this was where the noise was coming from ...the cams were rough enough to throw the rocker up off the cam and hit back down ...there was two of them doing it for sure and almost made you think it was a wrist pin or rod or somthing ...but it didnt do it all the time and sometimes it would sound different .....but its obvious that it was all in the rockers and cam ...the valves were all set right but that did not keep it from making the noise.....

so im thinking that a lot of the noise that some have in there motors might be the cams and rokers that proper adjustment wont take care of ....cause now the bike is making no noise at all the quietist its ever been .....im liking my angry porche in full dress what a fun ride this bike is now :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Interesting what you say about that noise, you described mine to a T.

I've got a few cams in the garage, I'm sure I have at least 1- 1000 cam.
What was it you did to quiet it down?

 

[mcgovern61]

..the 83 had some noise in the motor and it was hard to identify what it was ..it was kinda scairy just thinking about what it might be ...but after working on it changing the cams i noticed that two of the rockers smears on them or discoloration and felt just slightly unsmooth ...thers no doutb in my mind now that this was where the noise was coming from ...the cams were rough enough to throw the rocker up off the cam and hit back down ...there was two of them doing it for sure and almost made you think it was a wrist pin or rod or somthing ...but it didnt do it all the time and sometimes it would sound different .....but its obvious that it was all in the rockers and cam ...the valves were all set right but that did not keep it from making the noise..

Joe, did it sound anything like the noise in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SyhI7BDnhE



Or this? (Sorry Dan, I had to post yours too!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMu4xe7LL0



(Youtube link fixed, df)

 

[mcgovern61]

Boy...that would be great if that is what it is!! :yahoo: We have been chasing down this type of noise for a long time around here! I have not opened up my '81 engine yet (the one in the video) and if it could just be the cams that would be an easy fix! (The sound does come from the valve train).

It would really be great because this engine actually has good compression, oil flow and power, just real noisy at 3000+ RPM. (Of course, I could be dreaming it could be that simple :smilie_happy: )

 

[dan filipi]

That's the noise mine makes.
I rode it today and once it gets good and warm in traffic it gets pretty loud especially around 3-4k rpm.
I've been chasing this noise ever since I got this bike. It would be amazing if the cam is the cause!

 

[dan filipi]

Yes, we've been chasing that noise for years!!

The noise does seem to come from the top end, that's why I pretty much wrote it off as piston slap or wrist pin waiting for it to get worse so I could find the cause.

 

[mcgovern61]

Yes, we've been chasing that noise for years!!

The noise does seem to come from the top end, that's why I pretty much wrote it off as piston slap or wrist pin waiting for it to get worse so I could find the cause.

I know I have posted this video before, but if you notice the knocking starts after the oil pressure drops and the choke is pushed in. It was summer time and the engine heated up real fast. If the cam lobes are not right, could explain why the noise develops as the engine warms and the oil film thins! (Although I did try all different kinds of oil up to 50W racing oil in an attempt to quiet it down. They all did the same thing - start quiet, warm up, knock!)[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPysWst04xk[/video]

 

[dan filipi]

Well, well. I think we need to revive the original knocking thread because this is getting interesting and I'm getting all excited thinking I may have a quiet engine one day!

Gerry, I think there is more to yours than just the knock.
Notice how the rpms are high and how fast the oil pressure drops even though the rpms didn't change.
To me that indicates a oil delivery problem.
Maybe a plugged pickup screen, or sucking air, bad oil pump, low oil level.
Ya know, a plugged scavenger pump could allow a lot of oil to dump into the rear engine case resulting in a low oil level which, maybe low enough for the main oil pump to suck air.

 

[joedrum]

well im not saying its the fix all .....and my noises are somwhat different but it could be different degrees of thesame problem .....im sure pounding like this just gets worst with higher degrees of noise ....and it got to clobble the springs into a very weak condition ....but the springs are the great cushioning system that would insure this to happen for long time without drastic outcome of total failure that sound seems like it could do

on dan thought gerry i bet your scavenging pump is block up on yours causing your main pump to run short on oil ....that back cover can hold a lot of oil in it ..dam near all the oil a goldwing has ...nice conculsion dan it just may be right on...

after going over the 75 cams i couldnt beleave how lumpy they seem going around the lobe ....you could see the every move the grinding machine made and over time it just got more pronowced ....i did it all by hand with a thin cutoff wheel that was slightly flexable that went on a 4" grinder and with a lot of touch rough out all the luppyness in the lobes checking it in the light till it was smooth with a satin finish from the rough wheel ...and after that cut the scatches out with some fine micro shine sanding film its plastic but any emory coth type stuff would work .......and when your roughing it out always use circular motion with touch and no canyyon cutting gooves ....you never want to push down any further or harder than 1/2 thrichness of the grit your dealing with so it stays sharp and waist has a place to get out ....keep the disc clean cam clean ....ahhh anyway i think i got my point accross the rockers need done to ....


when you take it apart you sould be able to tell it going on just by looking ....that discoloratoin is a big sign on the rockers ....earlyer in the post i discribed how i went about doing the cam change and timing thing that all went real well except for the replacing the timing mark cover before starting ....it was diffitnitly the best way ive ever done the timing belt deal and tensioner job....... :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Well I've been suspecting the cams as a possible cause for the knocking since the last time I split the case open.
Piston skirts, pins, mains etc etc all look good with good compression so I'm going to have 2 spare cams ground once I get the cash.

 

[joedrum]

dan you sould get one of your cams off the shelf and look at it in a light stream and im sure you will be able to see how raged there cut even though they look smooth use a magnifying glass ....it only makes sense that the trip around the cam cam sould be flawless......

with as much noise as your bike is making ....i bet the rocker holders are worn bad underneath side of the rods ....thers a way to switch them out to new rod surface for them to ride on ......on another thought your 83 with its gearing taller than the 82 i worked with .....if the 1000 cams you got are from a 78-79 this might be a perfect mod for this bike ......78-79 cams are milder than 75-77 cams but there more agressive than 1100 cams ....you sould post back what the marking are on it so we can identify the what yr they are....which are even more milder than 1200 cams or any of the 4 clylinder wings i serched hard to find all this stuff out....

im confident that doing the work i did on the cams to smooth them out and rockers to is only going to have benifits even if it dont cure all the noise problems and its just not that hard to do ....just have to go slow and careful through the dreded timing belt fears and always start by loosening all valve adjusters and have all the pistons suck down in there possition first...

i think a bike that gose forever in this condition eventaly sucks a valve or breaks a cam right in half or both to end its days with possible piston and cylinder damage

i think this is going to be standard practise for me and my bikes now..... :mrgreen: cash what cash idint spend any :mrgreen:


gerry with your motor out like it is taking the rear cover off and unpluging the drain back to the main oil resevoir i think is easy ....we can find out...true those cams up and have spare motor for the all girl pit crew to plug in ... :smilie_happy: :mrgreen:

 

[mcgovern61]

gerry with your motor out like it is taking the rear cover off and unpluging the drain back to the main oil resevoir i think is easy ....we can find out...true those cams up and have spare motor for the all girl pit crew to plug in ... :smilie_happy: :mrgreen:

I am going to do just that! Since the compression and oil flow seem real good otherwise, it is definately worth doing some work to this engine (which I almost decided to just sell "as is" to make room). I have the transmission from the blown '82 engine and had originally planned on swapping out those gears with the '81 to slow the RPM on the highway. Lots of options if this turns out to be the issue with that engine!

 

[mcgovern61]

Well, well. I think we need to revive the original knocking thread because this is getting interesting and I'm getting all excited thinking I may have a quiet engine one day!

I agree!

Gerry, I think there is more to yours than just the knock. Notice how the rpms are high and how fast the oil pressure drops even though the rpms didn't change. To me that indicates a oil delivery problem. Maybe a plugged pickup screen, or sucking air, bad oil pump, low oil level. Ya know, a plugged scavenger pump could allow a lot of oil to dump into the rear engine case resulting in a low oil level which, maybe low enough for the main oil pump to suck air.

I will remove the rear cover and check (In January, too much travel going on right now!).

To be fair, in the video, when the pressure drops off, I am taking the bike from an upright position and leaning it over onto the side stand in an attempt to see if that alone could have caused the knock. But as you can see, even after the bike is upright it still knocked. BUT....if the scavanger pump is plugged and the oil is trapped, it would explain the pressure drop as well as less lubrication to the cams allowing the cams to SMACK into the rockers. (Good theory? Its my story and I am sticking with it!) :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

I just did a video of a loose cam I have.
I'll post it up soon.