Nice catch your awesome
1985 LTD 2018 Fall Work Period
- Thread starter Rednaxs60
- Start date
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Thanks. Just got the bike back to a point where I could start the engine. I am pleased to say that I now have a quiet running engine. A lot of work just for a hose clamp, but had to be done. Will be checking the TPS, balancing the cylinder banks and setting the idle today/tomorrow. Once this is done, driving lights, adjust lower fairings to fit (moved the rad a bit), and onto the road trial. Looking forward to how it operates with the compression being good.
Will be aware of the fuel smell on start. Have had to adjust the idle down quite a bit since I had the air chamber out the first time.
Had a significant fuel smell on start and even when on the roads. Since I freed up the cruise throttle cancellation plate on the side of the air chamber, I've had to reset the TPS twice, and idle down the engine. Think that this contributes to the running rich and a fuel smell when starting and during operation. Even though you can have the TPS set, cylinder banks balanced, and the idle where it should be, I would submit that the engine is operating in the rich zone. Hoping this is a correct theory, will find out when I finish installing the air chamber.
You can check to see if the throttle cruise cancellation unit is working. If it is not frozen, you can see the plate move. This plate is behind the throttle linkage in the centre of the air chamber.
More to follow.
Cheers
Will be aware of the fuel smell on start. Have had to adjust the idle down quite a bit since I had the air chamber out the first time.
Had a significant fuel smell on start and even when on the roads. Since I freed up the cruise throttle cancellation plate on the side of the air chamber, I've had to reset the TPS twice, and idle down the engine. Think that this contributes to the running rich and a fuel smell when starting and during operation. Even though you can have the TPS set, cylinder banks balanced, and the idle where it should be, I would submit that the engine is operating in the rich zone. Hoping this is a correct theory, will find out when I finish installing the air chamber.
You can check to see if the throttle cruise cancellation unit is working. If it is not frozen, you can see the plate move. This plate is behind the throttle linkage in the centre of the air chamber.
More to follow.
Cheers
OP
OP
Spent some time this afternoon setting up the engine. TPS calibrated, cylinder banks balanced and idle set. Let the engine idle up to 5 bars on the temp gauge, filled up the coolant reservoir to the upper level mark, and shut it down. Noticed that the coolant reservoir has gone down since shutting off the engine - system working as it should.
Adjusting the lower fairings to fit - should have done a better job earlier but hindsight is you know.
Aiming for next Wednesday for the road test. Have some good riding weather the next few days that will let me exercise the 1500.
As an aside, picked this up on the NGW forum - interesting read: https://powersports.honda.com/Experienc ... c081171dd1
Cheers
Adjusting the lower fairings to fit - should have done a better job earlier but hindsight is you know.
Aiming for next Wednesday for the road test. Have some good riding weather the next few days that will let me exercise the 1500.
As an aside, picked this up on the NGW forum - interesting read: https://powersports.honda.com/Experienc ... c081171dd1
Cheers
OP
OP
Bike is back together:
Getting ready for the road test on Wednesday, looking forward to it. Will put together a list of what I have done to date. Been a while and glad when this work period is completed.
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:clapping: :good:
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OP
Good bit of work done, a good ride yesterday on the 1500 - 275 Kms. Got the plate sticker and made the 1200 road legal. It is now official, it is out of the barn:
Took it for a ride, not far but with enough variety. Way different then the 1500, cruises nicely, not as quiet on acceleration, have to remember to shift more often, and it is way lighter than the 1500. Now to ride it for a few days/Kms, and then do a complete check of what I worked on. Will do a compression test and check the plugs for colour.
Happy to mention that I now have my self cancelling signals back, and the throttle cruise cancel works. Have to look into why the cruise and cruise set lights are not illuminating on the dash. Checked these with the dash out and lights are good.
Have some fumes on start - investigation needed. When I had to take the air chamber out to fix the air leak, I noticed there was a small fuel mixture at the intake valve - cylinders 2 and 4, didn't check 1 and 3. Indicates to me that the injectors are leaking or the ECU is not shutting the signal off immediately on shut down. Will be checking this out, but for now, it's time to ride it like I stole it.
Lots of items to still address, but all in good time. Still pleased with the results. Cheers
Happy to mention that I now have my self cancelling signals back, and the throttle cruise cancel works. Have to look into why the cruise and cruise set lights are not illuminating on the dash. Checked these with the dash out and lights are good.
Have some fumes on start - investigation needed. When I had to take the air chamber out to fix the air leak, I noticed there was a small fuel mixture at the intake valve - cylinders 2 and 4, didn't check 1 and 3. Indicates to me that the injectors are leaking or the ECU is not shutting the signal off immediately on shut down. Will be checking this out, but for now, it's time to ride it like I stole it.
Lots of items to still address, but all in good time. Still pleased with the results. Cheers
OP
OP
Picked up an inexpensive borescope - $24.00 CDN. It uses an app on the phone - WIFI Borescope, and WIFI. Here are some pics of the package:
Instructions are cryptic, and a bit of trial and error is to be expected. Will take a bit to get used to it and take pictures as I want to. Here is a picture of the throttle cruise cancel switch - not bad quality:
The cable may be a bit too stiff, but one can always get used to what works.
This is the CDN site on Amazon: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07CVT ... UTF8&psc=1
Cheers
This is the CDN site on Amazon: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07CVT ... UTF8&psc=1
Cheers
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Wow that’s a good price. Update what you think of it after using it awhile.
OP
OP
Had picked up one a while back, think around the same price, but could not make it work. Decided to try again and been able to get this one to work as it should.
Will try and use it to look at the intake valve area with just the injectors out. Be first real test for the scope. Have some other areas I want to look at for clearances.
Cheers
Will try and use it to look at the intake valve area with just the injectors out. Be first real test for the scope. Have some other areas I want to look at for clearances.
Cheers
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2009
- Messages
- 10,979
- Reaction score
- 237
- Location
- Kingsport, Tennessee
- My Bike Models
- Former '82 GL1100 "The Slug"
Great news the bike is on the road! :clapping: :moped:
I also would like updates on your opinion of the borescope. Create a new topic if you like! It might be easier to track progress.
I also would like updates on your opinion of the borescope. Create a new topic if you like! It might be easier to track progress.
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1998 GL1500c Val
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1991 CBR1000f Red
Use mine all the time. Yesterday I couldn’t remember the password and I just googled the model and the instructions were online. Works great with the iPad. :good:
OP
OP
Took the bike out for another ride today. Think it is not sparking on all four cylinders. Think this because could smell fuel when the engine is running at a stop and have been on the road, started to heat up sooner than expected and did not drop engine temperature as fast as expected when back on the highway, and idle was lower than set when at a stop. Will be investigating this over the next week. I also noticed that the engine did not start and go to a fast idle when initially started first thing.
So, with everything going on, I have to ascertain if the injectors are leaking - will take the injectors out and check the intakes. Second is to find out why I do not have four cylinders firing. Could be a heat issue, the coils are some 34 years old. Will see if there is troubleshooting for the spark igniters.
Have a Tail Light indicator light on in the dash. Lights up when there is a tail/stoplight bulb burned out; however, have no lights out. This came on last year when I started to install LED bulbs. I also noticed today that when the left signal light was on, the Tail Light indicator light was fluctuating with the flashing of the turn signal light. A place to start I'd think.
More to follow.
Cheers
So, with everything going on, I have to ascertain if the injectors are leaking - will take the injectors out and check the intakes. Second is to find out why I do not have four cylinders firing. Could be a heat issue, the coils are some 34 years old. Will see if there is troubleshooting for the spark igniters.
Have a Tail Light indicator light on in the dash. Lights up when there is a tail/stoplight bulb burned out; however, have no lights out. This came on last year when I started to install LED bulbs. I also noticed today that when the left signal light was on, the Tail Light indicator light was fluctuating with the flashing of the turn signal light. A place to start I'd think.
More to follow.
Cheers
Love those electric BS ...cooling system must not be doing good ..that’s huge and number one motor killer ....lots on the table it seems
OP
OP
Cooling system is working as it should. Been down the "rabbit" hole with the cooling system couple of years back. Heated up to 6 bars on the temp gauge, rad fan comes on, all is well. There is a direct correlation between engine heat and cylinder firing - can't prove but my observations.
The harder the engine works running on less than four cylinders, the hotter it gets sooner. Mine is definitely firing related. Going to check all the sensors, not a big job. Check the coils, should be good. Set of 1500 coils from Montreal, $40.00 to the door. Read a post yesterday where old parts are old parts, but installing new you still have old parts to contend with.
Not a lot in the system to go wrong. Gr/Gl sensors - commonly called PG sensors - on the back of the right cylinder head. Ns sensor on the crank - new last year I believe. Spark igniters - replacing these will not be easy - have a source for spark igniters out of the US, 5 wire instead of four because designed for the 1100 with a pick up coil. Should be able to determine which wire not to use.
Interesting times.
Cheers
The harder the engine works running on less than four cylinders, the hotter it gets sooner. Mine is definitely firing related. Going to check all the sensors, not a big job. Check the coils, should be good. Set of 1500 coils from Montreal, $40.00 to the door. Read a post yesterday where old parts are old parts, but installing new you still have old parts to contend with.
Not a lot in the system to go wrong. Gr/Gl sensors - commonly called PG sensors - on the back of the right cylinder head. Ns sensor on the crank - new last year I believe. Spark igniters - replacing these will not be easy - have a source for spark igniters out of the US, 5 wire instead of four because designed for the 1100 with a pick up coil. Should be able to determine which wire not to use.
Interesting times.
Cheers
OP
OP
Had a good ride today on the 1500. The 1200 is in the barn for investigative work.
Looked into the Tail Light indicator. Backtracked from when I installed the LED lights last year. Replaced the last one I did with the original incandescent and the light went out. I surmise that the Tail Light sensor needs a minimum load to be set. Have read that resistors have been used in the various light systems to keep the indicators off.
Will be changing out the Gr/Gl sensors (commonly called PG sensors by others). Picked up a set complete with mounting plate last year. Checked the sensors for spec and right in the middle of the spec range. The reason I am changing these out in total is that the sensors are kept in place by a small plate that is mounted on a magnet. Read about an alternative replacement on the CX500-CX650 turbo forum and it was surmised that the magnet does influence the sensor. Makes a bit of sense considering that Honda would not have used magnets if not required. Anyone have a better answer be glad to hear your thoughts.
Here is the Gr/Gl sensors removed with plate attached:
Here is a picture of the broken magnet:
Now to turn the bike around and start on troubleshooting the CFI system.
Cheers
Looked into the Tail Light indicator. Backtracked from when I installed the LED lights last year. Replaced the last one I did with the original incandescent and the light went out. I surmise that the Tail Light sensor needs a minimum load to be set. Have read that resistors have been used in the various light systems to keep the indicators off.
Will be changing out the Gr/Gl sensors (commonly called PG sensors by others). Picked up a set complete with mounting plate last year. Checked the sensors for spec and right in the middle of the spec range. The reason I am changing these out in total is that the sensors are kept in place by a small plate that is mounted on a magnet. Read about an alternative replacement on the CX500-CX650 turbo forum and it was surmised that the magnet does influence the sensor. Makes a bit of sense considering that Honda would not have used magnets if not required. Anyone have a better answer be glad to hear your thoughts.
Here is the Gr/Gl sensors removed with plate attached:
Now to turn the bike around and start on troubleshooting the CFI system.
Cheers
OP
OP
Went looking for info regarding these Gr/Gl magnets. Found info on the CX500-CX650 turbo forum. These bikes use the same magnets that the '85 LTD and '86 SE-i use. Another bike that uses the same magnets is a GSXR 750/1000.
Rayman, a senior member on that forum has provided the following explanation for the use of the magnet in the Gr/Gl setup as follows: "the magnet is a bias magnet that sets up a magnetic field between the pole piece (around which the coils is wound) and the timing rotor - which is steel and not itself magnetic. When the rotor is further away the field through the pole / coil is lower - when the rotor comes close the field becomes much stronger - its this changing in field strength that induces the voltage in the coil and generates the trigger pulses.
On the broken magnet - stick them back together - with a touch of good epoxy if you like - it will still be the same.
the magnet is a collection of small magnetic domains - all the way down to the atomic level - they are just all lined up together to produce a cumulative total. When you divide a magnet it does NOT suddenly develop another pole: you've just exposed another pole that was already there - MMF (magneto motive Force) is directly equivalent to EMF (electromotive force ( or Voltage)) - so if you like think of it like batteries in series.
Stick it back together - carry on and worry about more important stuff - like where's the next beer ?"
Here is the forum thread on this: https://cx500forum.com/forum/turbo-tech ... agnet.html
Cheers
Rayman, a senior member on that forum has provided the following explanation for the use of the magnet in the Gr/Gl setup as follows: "the magnet is a bias magnet that sets up a magnetic field between the pole piece (around which the coils is wound) and the timing rotor - which is steel and not itself magnetic. When the rotor is further away the field through the pole / coil is lower - when the rotor comes close the field becomes much stronger - its this changing in field strength that induces the voltage in the coil and generates the trigger pulses.
On the broken magnet - stick them back together - with a touch of good epoxy if you like - it will still be the same.
the magnet is a collection of small magnetic domains - all the way down to the atomic level - they are just all lined up together to produce a cumulative total. When you divide a magnet it does NOT suddenly develop another pole: you've just exposed another pole that was already there - MMF (magneto motive Force) is directly equivalent to EMF (electromotive force ( or Voltage)) - so if you like think of it like batteries in series.
Stick it back together - carry on and worry about more important stuff - like where's the next beer ?"
Here is the forum thread on this: https://cx500forum.com/forum/turbo-tech ... agnet.html
Cheers
Interesting work
OP
OP
Started the investigation into why the bike was not firing on all four cylinders. The electronics on this bike is a challenge. Going through the service manuals and identifying items and what these relate to is an issue unto itself.
There is a lot of wiring that is shared by the CFI system and other non-essential riding systems. An example of this is the sharing of wiring between the cruise system and the CFI injector system. Have read where non related systems are affected just because of the wiring aspect.
The CFI system ECU controls the operation of the CFI system by grounding the input signals to get the appropriate engine operation.
Testing of components will be:
Injector resistor module. Spec is for a resistance reading of 2.9 to 3.2 ohms. Checked the resistance and it is between 3.3 and 3.5 ohms. Have looked for NOS, but there is nothing available. It's a signal into the module, through a resistor to each cylinder bank, then out to the ECU. If I cannot find a suitable/alternative replacement, may be able to manufacture one to suit. here is what the module looks like and the location on the rear fender:
Gr/Gl sensors (originals). Will spec before change out.
Ns sensor - crank sensor. New two years ago, but will spec.
TPS sensor. Original, and working good, but will check IAW manual. Have had a bit of experience with new TPS unit(s) when I brought the 1200 across Canada last year. Know what a bad TPS feels like and can do to an engine. Thanks to Tony from down under for his insight into the TPS. Also learned that the TPS being a small innocuous item, the QA is negligible; hence, even a new one can be defective.
Will do a fuel system pressure test, and leave the gauge hooked up to determine how long the system stays pressurized. Took the fuel pressure test bolt out Friday and there was no pressure in the fuel system. Would expect that there should be some residual pressure. Pressure test will be done with the OEM injectors first, then with a set of aftermarket injectors Autoline 16313.
Used the scope that I purchased. It is 9 mm camera, and takes good pictures. I took out numbers 3 and 4 injectors, easiest to get at to have a look to see if there was residual fuel at the back of the intake valves. 3 and 4 cylinders are dry. Will be taking the parts off to get at numbers 1 and 2. Will be looking at the intake valves after each fuel pressure test as well. Here is cylinder #3:
Cylinder #4:
Being able to get the scope down through the base injector hole is nice otherwise would have to remove the goose neck, but then would not need the scope because you can see the backside of the intake valve without a scope.
Injectors to be checked for resistance.
Once this is all done, review the troubleshooting procedure(s) in the Supplement to make sure I don't miss anything.
No definitive issue so far. Also posting this to keep me focused on what could possibly be the issue. Cheers
There is a lot of wiring that is shared by the CFI system and other non-essential riding systems. An example of this is the sharing of wiring between the cruise system and the CFI injector system. Have read where non related systems are affected just because of the wiring aspect.
The CFI system ECU controls the operation of the CFI system by grounding the input signals to get the appropriate engine operation.
Testing of components will be:
Injector resistor module. Spec is for a resistance reading of 2.9 to 3.2 ohms. Checked the resistance and it is between 3.3 and 3.5 ohms. Have looked for NOS, but there is nothing available. It's a signal into the module, through a resistor to each cylinder bank, then out to the ECU. If I cannot find a suitable/alternative replacement, may be able to manufacture one to suit. here is what the module looks like and the location on the rear fender:
Gr/Gl sensors (originals). Will spec before change out.
Ns sensor - crank sensor. New two years ago, but will spec.
TPS sensor. Original, and working good, but will check IAW manual. Have had a bit of experience with new TPS unit(s) when I brought the 1200 across Canada last year. Know what a bad TPS feels like and can do to an engine. Thanks to Tony from down under for his insight into the TPS. Also learned that the TPS being a small innocuous item, the QA is negligible; hence, even a new one can be defective.
Will do a fuel system pressure test, and leave the gauge hooked up to determine how long the system stays pressurized. Took the fuel pressure test bolt out Friday and there was no pressure in the fuel system. Would expect that there should be some residual pressure. Pressure test will be done with the OEM injectors first, then with a set of aftermarket injectors Autoline 16313.
Used the scope that I purchased. It is 9 mm camera, and takes good pictures. I took out numbers 3 and 4 injectors, easiest to get at to have a look to see if there was residual fuel at the back of the intake valves. 3 and 4 cylinders are dry. Will be taking the parts off to get at numbers 1 and 2. Will be looking at the intake valves after each fuel pressure test as well. Here is cylinder #3:
Injectors to be checked for resistance.
Once this is all done, review the troubleshooting procedure(s) in the Supplement to make sure I don't miss anything.
No definitive issue so far. Also posting this to keep me focused on what could possibly be the issue. Cheers
My my my hondawiring
OP
OP
More investigation done today.
Looked at 1 and 3 cylinders today with the scope. Nice to be able to go int through the injector holes without removing the goose necks. Here is a picture of #1:
Went and did a fuel pressure test, static at 38 PSI, let sit for just over an hour and lost 11 PSI. Looked in the fuel tank, and did not see any fuel coming out the pressure regulator tube, but that's not to say it did not. Took the injectors out for another look, and all four cylinders were dry. Will look into a new, alternative fuel pressure regulating valve. When I did this test, I did not hook the injector wires onto the injectors. Possible the CFI system is not cancelling the injector signal completely. Will keep this in mind.
Checked the injector(s) resistance. All injectors were 1.8 ohms, in spec.
The cruise control system is under investigation as well. The dash indicators do not cycle when the key is first turned on, nor do they work when used on the highway. Started to check the power IAW the Electrical Troubleshooting manual. Couple of pins, numbers 19/18/8, are supposed to have power at all times when the cruise switch is turned on, do not show battery voltage. Did a retest to duplicate results and was not able to. Will be cleaning the various cruise control switches, and retest. I have isolated one issue and this is with the indicator light check relay. It is buried deep under the coils and behind the right front fork. Need to take the front fairing off to get at it, or take out the coils. May remove the coils as I will check the resistance.
Noticed a red light on the cruise control unit. After I get through with correcting this system, will look to see if the light actually works.
Will also check the ride and level control system as well for operation. Have looked at the switches for this system before and the switches are sealed.
Have to say that the troubleshooting guides in the Electrical Troubleshooting and Supplement manuals are quite good. These guides and looking at the schematics in conjunction with, are a necessity when working on the '85 LTD and '86 SE-i fuel injected models. A fellow over on Steve Saunders forum mentioned that he wouldn't put gas in a "fuelie" without having the service manuals.
Feel all this work will pay off in the long run. Parts don't last forever and knowledge of the systems will not go to waste.
More to follow. Cheers
Looked at 1 and 3 cylinders today with the scope. Nice to be able to go int through the injector holes without removing the goose necks. Here is a picture of #1:
Checked the injector(s) resistance. All injectors were 1.8 ohms, in spec.
The cruise control system is under investigation as well. The dash indicators do not cycle when the key is first turned on, nor do they work when used on the highway. Started to check the power IAW the Electrical Troubleshooting manual. Couple of pins, numbers 19/18/8, are supposed to have power at all times when the cruise switch is turned on, do not show battery voltage. Did a retest to duplicate results and was not able to. Will be cleaning the various cruise control switches, and retest. I have isolated one issue and this is with the indicator light check relay. It is buried deep under the coils and behind the right front fork. Need to take the front fairing off to get at it, or take out the coils. May remove the coils as I will check the resistance.
Noticed a red light on the cruise control unit. After I get through with correcting this system, will look to see if the light actually works.
Will also check the ride and level control system as well for operation. Have looked at the switches for this system before and the switches are sealed.
Have to say that the troubleshooting guides in the Electrical Troubleshooting and Supplement manuals are quite good. These guides and looking at the schematics in conjunction with, are a necessity when working on the '85 LTD and '86 SE-i fuel injected models. A fellow over on Steve Saunders forum mentioned that he wouldn't put gas in a "fuelie" without having the service manuals.
Feel all this work will pay off in the long run. Parts don't last forever and knowledge of the systems will not go to waste.
More to follow. Cheers
